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olympic
 Posted:
Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:32 am |
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| pax wrote: | Five hundred billion dollars for what?
U.S. taxpayers are funding it. |
so they can destroy it....and halliburton can amass more wealth rebuilding it.
30 some years ago, usa was trading arms with iran, now we are entertaining thoughts of invading them.... 
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:21 pm |
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The President is seeking an additional $46 billion for fiscal 2008 for the war. This is in addition to the $150 billion already projected for that year.
This $46 billion is about one-and-a-half times as much as the amount Bush says the government can't possibly spend over the next five years on the State Children's Health Insurance Program.
We can spend $500 billion in five years on an unwinnable war, and cannot spend $30 billion in five years on health insurance for children? Where are our priorities?
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:34 pm |
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| olympic wrote: | | pax wrote: | Five hundred billion dollars for what?
U.S. taxpayers are funding it. |
so they can destroy it....and halliburton can amass more wealth rebuilding it.
30 some years ago, usa was trading arms with iran, now we are entertaining thoughts of invading them.... |
Well-respected former fed chairman Allen Greenspan (harldly a partisan idealogue) says the war is about oil. Even taking that cynical (and proably accurate) view, it's a failure. Oil rigs are getting destroyed and oil prices are at an all-time high.
It's time to end the war.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dugo
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:25 am |
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| pax wrote: | Well-respected former fed chairman Allen Greenspan (harldly a partisan idealogue) says the war is about oil. Even taking that cynical (and proably accurate) view, it's a failure. Oil rigs are getting destroyed and oil prices are at an all-time high.
It's time to end the war. |
Oil prices at an all time high? Whahahha... No pax, the USD is drifting downward.
More Greenspan @
http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2007/10/22/1192940984598.html
Foreigners tired of US dollar, says Greenspan | Quote: | | The Fed's trade-weighted broad dollar index, a measure of the dollar against the currencies of US trading partners, dropped to 99.49 on Friday, the lowest level since 1997. The US currency fell to a record low against the euro yesterday, trading at $US1.433 per euro in Tokyo in early trading. |
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 5947
Location: L4L
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| pax
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:26 am |
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| dugo wrote: | | pax wrote: | Well-respected former fed chairman Allen Greenspan (harldly a partisan idealogue) says the war is about oil. Even taking that cynical (and proably accurate) view, it's a failure. Oil rigs are getting destroyed and oil prices are at an all-time high.
It's time to end the war. |
Oil prices at an all time high? Whahahha... No pax, the USD is drifting downward.
More Greenspan @
http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2007/10/22/1192940984598.html
Foreigners tired of US dollar, says Greenspan | Quote: | | The Fed's trade-weighted broad dollar index, a measure of the dollar against the currencies of US trading partners, dropped to 99.49 on Friday, the lowest level since 1997. The US currency fell to a record low against the euro yesterday, trading at $US1.433 per euro in Tokyo in early trading. | |
Thanks for pointing that out dugo. I should have said mideast oil is at an all-time high for U.S.A. Do you think the war is part of the reason?
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:51 pm |
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Figures from 2004 -
The Largest (Import) Suppliers of Oil were:
Canada 17%
Mexico 13%
Venezuela 12.4%
Saudi Arabia 11%
...
Iraq 5%
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/05/oil_where_the_u.html
Because oil is a global commodity, freely traded, the price of oil is determined on the world market. It responds to the forces of supply and demand and to political events, no matter where they occur. Even if the U.S. shifted all of its oil imports to relatively safe sources, such as Canada and Mexico, it would not be protected from a price shock – whether caused by politics, war, or terrorism. The only way to reduce the risks associated with oil is to reduce the demand for it – in other words, to increase the efficiency of oil consumption and increase the use of alternative fuels.
http://www.energyfuturecoalition.org/biofuels/benefits_oil_dep_nat_security.htm
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
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| pax
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:11 pm |
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Good idea. Reduce the risks associated with oil by reducing the demand for it. Increase efficiency of oil consumption and increase the use of alternative fuels. Al Gore emphasized this in 2000; he got the most votes but didn't become President. Better late than never; what's the current Administration doing along these lines?
Five hundred billion dollars for war, and what results? What about one hundred billion for alternative energy, one hundred billion to make social security solvent, one hundred billion for better health care, and two hundred billion not spent at all?
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:28 pm |
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| pax wrote: | Good idea. Reduce the risks associated with oil by reducing the demand for it. Increase efficiency of oil consumption and increase the use of alternative fuels. Al Gore emphasized this in 2000; he got the most votes but didn't become President. Better late than never; what's the current Administration doing along these lines?
Five hundred billion dollars for war, and what results? What about one hundred billion for alternative energy, one hundred billion to make social security solvent, one hundred billion for better health care, and two hundred billion not spent at all? |
Why not lambast the auto companies for the lack of alternative energy vehicles? They've been dragging their feet for decades. It's their product that creates the demand for oil - not the other way around.
Besides, we aren't the only consumers on the planet. Best check out China and their ever-growing hunger for oil.
Alternative fuel sources:
Drill in Anwar - shot down by Dems for years
Ethanol - driven up the world-wide price of corn futures and made tortilla prices shoot up in Mexico and elsewhere and the resulting rise in the price of feed corn has driven up beef prices and made beef a scarcity in some spots.
Get real re: Gore would have done this that or the other. To begin with - he WAS NOT elected President. Secondly, where the hell was he during 8 years while VP? What did he accomplish along these lines?
Social Security WOULD be solvent if lawmakers had truly put it in Al Gore's infamous 'lockbox'.
Most of the gridlock in DC comes from the House and Senate - not the Executive branch. The majority of those clowns have been there a lot longer than Bush and will be there long after he departs. Blame them for this stuff not getting done. They've been talking about it for as long as I can remember and Bush wasn't there.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:17 pm |
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Yes, the automakers have dragged their feet. Kicking the bums out of Congress involves defeating those who promote $500 billion wars over exploration of alternative sources of energy. I'm in favor of that.
Regarding tortillas, taco bell is reasonably priced. 
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:43 pm |
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| pax wrote: | Yes, the automakers have dragged their feet. Kicking the bums out of Congress involves defeating those who promote $500 billion wars over exploration of alternative sources of energy. I'm in favor of that.
Regarding tortillas, taco bell is reasonably priced. |
From what I understand the increase in tortilla prices has had the greatest impact on the poorer people of Mexico and other countries where that food is a staple.
Hmmmm. Massachusetts just defeated the windmill project off of Cape Cod thanks to people like Ted Kennedy and others who didn't want to lose their view even though the windmills would have been miles out to sea. So much for gving alternative energy a chance.
We don't neccesarily need govt. money to explore alternative energy sources. Or even U.S. govt. money. The whole world is looking for alternatives. Why should the U.S. taxpayer be the only one to fund such a venture? Or the only ones capable of such a venture?
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
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| pax
Posted:
Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:37 pm |
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The U.S. taxpayer is funding a $500 billion war.
What are the objectives of the war?
Are those objectives being accomplished?
Can they be accomplished for less cost, with better likelihood of success?
Could the money be better spent elsewhere, or not spent?
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:55 pm |
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| pax wrote: | The U.S. taxpayer is funding a $500 billion war.
What are the objectives of the war?
Are those objectives being accomplished?
Can they be accomplished for less cost, with better likelihood of success?
Could the money be better spent elsewhere, or not spent? |
You need to get over your obsession with this war - just like you need to get over the Al Gore loss from almost a decade ago.
Why do you continue to ask these questions about the war such as objectives and accomplishments when you'll never be willing to believe any answer other than that which you've already decided to believe anyway?
Frankly, I think everyone is becoming bored with all the gloom and doom and nothing but negative pessimism coming from media and politicians alike. To listen to them not a single damn good thing is happening anywhere. We might as well all go out and dig our own graves and hop in and pull the dirt down over our heads.
Look toward tomorrow with hope and optimism. The human race cannot function on negative thinking. It is counterproductive.
Pessimists cannot be good leaders and good leaders cannot be pessimists.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:45 pm |
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It's the best of all possible worlds! 
Everyone has the right to question where tax money goes. The 'argument' that it shouldn't be discussed is the weakest (and most negative) rationale available.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dugo
Posted:
Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:27 am |
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| pax wrote: | | Thanks for pointing that out dugo. I should have said mideast oil is at an all-time high for U.S.A. Do you think the war is part of the reason? |
Asuming the war is part of the reason there is a huge budget deficit, yes.
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| dugo
Posted:
Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:30 am |
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| dithers wrote: | | We don't neccesarily need govt. money to explore alternative energy sources. Or even U.S. govt. money. The whole world is looking for alternatives. Why should the U.S. taxpayer be the only one to fund such a venture? Or the only ones capable of such a venture? |
Zoooom Zoooom!!
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 5947
Location: L4L
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| pax
Posted:
Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:30 pm |
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From cnn.com:
[ Howard Dean ] said Republicans support significant borrowing to continue wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but won't support the legislation to increase spending for the State Children's Health Insurance Program.
President Bush on Monday requested $46 billion to continue the war in Iraq and fighting in Afghanistan. The proposal brought to $196.4 billion the total requested for operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere for the budget year that started October 1.
On October 3 Bush vetoed legislation to add $35 billion over five years to the children's health insurance program. The House failed last week to override the veto. The children's health care program is a joint state-federal effort that subsidizes health coverage for 6.6 million people, mostly children, from families that earn too much to qualify for Medicaid but not enough to afford their own private coverage.
"America cannot afford four more years of a president who borrows for the war and denies health insurance for our kids," Dean said. Dean also offered his prayers to those affected by the California wildfires and thanked firefighters, the National Guard and others who are lending a hand. "You serve as a reminder that when we work together, Americans can accomplish anything," he said.
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| olympic
Posted:
Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm |
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Thousands call for swift end to Iraq war
SAN FRANCISCO - Thousands of people called for a swift end to the war in Iraq as they marched through downtown on Saturday, chanting and carrying signs that read: "Wall Street Gets Rich, Iraqis and GIs Die" or "Drop Tuition Not Bombs."
ADVERTISEMENT
The streets were filled with thousands as labor union members, anti-war activists, clergy and others rallied near City Hall before marching to Dolores Park.
As part of the demonstration, protesters fell on Market Street as part of a "die in" to commemorate the thousands of American soldiers and Iraqi citizens who have died since the conflict began in March 2003.
The protest was the largest in a series of war protests taking place in New York, Los Angeles and other U.S. cities, organizers said.
No official head count was available. Organizers of the event estimated about 30,000 people participated in San Francisco. It appeared that more than 10,000 people attended the march.
"I got the sense that many people were at a demonstration for the first time," said Sarah Sloan, one of the event's organizers. "That's something that's really changed. People have realized the right thing to do is to take to the streets."
In the shadow of the National Constitution Center and Independence Hall in Philadelphia, a few hundred protesters ranging from grade school-aged children to senior citizens called on President Bush to end funding for the war and bring troops home.
Marchers who braved severe wet weather during the walk of more than 30 blocks were met by people lining the sidewalks and clutching a long yellow ribbon over the final blocks before Independence Mall. There, the rally opened with songs and prayers by descendants of Lenape Indians.
"Our signs are limp from the rain and the ground is soggy, but out spirits are high," said Bal Pinguel, of the American Friends Service Committee, one of the national sponsors of the event. "The high price we are paying is the more than 3,800 troops who have been killed in the war in Iraq."
Vince Robbins, 51, of Mount Holly, N.J., said there needed to be more rallies and more outrage.
"Where's the outcry? Where's the horror that almost 4,000 Americans have died in a foreign country that we invaded?" Robbins said. "I'm almost as angry at the American people as I am the president. I think Americans have become apathetic and placid about the whole thing."
In New York, among the thousands marching down Broadway was a man carrying cardboard peace doves. Some others dressed as prisoners, wearing the bright orange garb of Guantanamo Bay inmates and pushing a person in a cage.
Chicago police said about 5,000 people marched through city streets to protest the war.
Police spokeswoman JoAnn Taylor said three protesters were arrested before the march started. They face charges including resisting arrest, failure to obey a police officer, criminal damage to property and aggravated battery to a police officer.
In Seattle, thousands of marchers were led by a small group of Iraq war veterans.
At Occidental Park, where the protesters rallied after the march, the American Friends Service Committee displayed scores of combat boots, one pair for each U.S. solider killed in Iraq.
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:53 am |
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Thanks for sharing that olympic. It's nice some are expressing their right to peaceably assemble. Heck, it's nice they stopped playing video games and got some fresh air, rofl.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| olympic
Posted:
Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:59 am |
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you are welcome pax.
the american’s don’t stand up for what’s right. ... in france, they kick the government’s ass with demonstrations and protests. they have the best daycare, best schools, all kinds of great things because the government is for the people, by the people....
here it’s george/dick monkey politics..... people do not know how to protest here..
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| olympic
Posted:
Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:19 am |
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60 Minutes' Identifies 'Curve Ball' Source Who Led U.S. to Invade Iraq
The identity of the man who claimed former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein had biological weapons, a key piece of information that helped lead the U.S. charge to invade Iraq, has been outed by CBS' "60 Minutes" news show.
Rafid Ahmed Alwan, known as "Curve Ball" in intelligence circles, is not a chemical engineering expert, according to the report, which instead characterized Alwan as a liar, a thief and poor student.
The CIA received hundreds of summaries of debriefings with Alwan, contributing to other intelligence reports that led the United States to bomb and invade Iraq. Former CIA Director George Tenet gave Alwan's allegations to Secretary of State Colin Powell for his report to the United Nations in the argument to take military action against Iraq, the news magazine reports.
The two-year investigation undertaken found that Alwan arrived in a refugee camp in Germany in 1999 and claimed to be a chemical engineer leading a facility at Djerf al Nadaf that was making mobile biological weapons. The news magazine reports that Alwan was looking for asylum and used his claims to bolster his case.
Alwan did study chemical engineering but he received poor grades. The investigation also found an arrest warrant for theft for Alwan.
Alwan led officials to believe Saddam possessed biological weapons, telling German intelligence officials about his insight with mostly accurate descriptions of a plant outside Baghdad. He told officials 12 workers were killed by biological agents at the plant.
A letter addressed to Tenet from the head of German intelligence states that Alwan's information appeared to be believable, but there was nothing to back up his allegations.
Tenet denies seeing the letter, a spokesman told "60 Minutes."
But CIA weapons inspectors visited the plant at Djerf al Nadaf before the invasion, finding no evidence of biological agents, CBS states in its report, adding that Alwan is likely in Germany today, living freely under an assumed name.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307479,00.html
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Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:56 am |
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I'm about a week late in responding to Dithers' very tired and trite comments that we should get over the war and Al Gore's loss. Geez, I wish it was so easy.
It is not free-thinking people who oppose the war that is the problem here. It IS the fact that through a quirk of fate, George Bush became president and has plundered our beloved country to the level it is today. It IS George Bush who used the American military to invade Iraq. It IS George Bush who is responsible for the dismal failures of the past nearly eight years. I am past Al Gore's loss. My country is NOT and will not for a long time.
Sorry, Dithers, but how the hell can you continue to support that man? He is by far the worse president that we have ever had. IMO.
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6560
Location: France
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:00 am |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | I'm about a week late in responding to Dithers' very tired and trite comments that we should get over the war and Al Gore's loss. Geez, I wish it was so easy.
It is not free-thinking people who oppose the war that is the problem here. It IS the fact that through a quirk of fate, George Bush became president and has plundered our beloved country to the level it is today. It IS George Bush who used the American military to invade Iraq. It IS George Bush who is responsible for the dismal failures of the past nearly eight years. I am past Al Gore's loss. My country is NOT and will not for a long time.
Sorry, Dithers, but how the hell can you continue to support that man? He is by far the worse president that we have ever had. IMO. |
Thank you, YIF.
I was appalled by dithers' post, but since I've already had my fruitless go-around with dithers about what I perceive as abhorrant ideological and ethical attitudes, I didn't bother responding.
Nonetheless, it was under my skin. Seconding your post is a relief.
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** Banned **
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:48 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | I'm about a week late in responding to Dithers' very tired and trite comments that we should get over the war and Al Gore's loss. Geez, I wish it was so easy.
It is not free-thinking people who oppose the war that is the problem here. It IS the fact that through a quirk of fate, George Bush became president and has plundered our beloved country to the level it is today. It IS George Bush who used the American military to invade Iraq. It IS George Bush who is responsible for the dismal failures of the past nearly eight years. I am past Al Gore's loss. My country is NOT and will not for a long time.
Sorry, Dithers, but how the hell can you continue to support that man? He is by far the worse president that we have ever had. IMO. |
I agree yif. When the argument becomes that we shouldn't discuss the war, it cuts into notions of free speech and healthy debate.
It's true this President has overseen the largest deficit in U.S. history, even as adjusted for inflation.
What I don't understand is why many would rather spend money on the military-industrial complex than improving the lives of our own citizens or balancing the budget.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:12 pm |
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Pax, I think it is because of an illogical perception that citizens who need help are lazy and unproductive and their plight is the result of their personal failures. Those people do not take into account people who are seriously ill, physically or mentally, through no fault of their own. They do not take into account that good people sometimes exercise bad judgment and given a bit of help will pull themselves up again. They are blind to everyone else's problems. Of course, there are freeloaders but they aren't the majority.
I am clueless as to why people would prefer funding the military-industrial complex over improving life for Americans whether it is health care or infrastructure repairs or replacement, but I think they might be misguided and think that it will increase their net worth and that is very important to them.
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6560
Location: France
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| pax
Posted:
Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:48 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | Pax, I think it is because of an illogical perception that citizens who need help are lazy and unproductive and their plight is the result of their personal failures. Those people do not take into account people who are seriously ill, physically or mentally, through no fault of their own. They do not take into account that good people sometimes exercise bad judgment and given a bit of help will pull themselves up again. They are blind to everyone else's problems. Of course, there are freeloaders but they aren't the majority.
I am clueless as to why people would prefer funding the military-industrial complex over improving life for Americans whether it is health care or infrastructure repairs or replacement, but I think they might be misguided and think that it will increase their net worth and that is very important to them. |
Thanks for the insightful comments yif. That Reagan-era image of the welfare mother who uses food stamps to buy booze left a strong impression. I think more Americans understand that stereotype is not the average person who can't afford health care.
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