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dithers
 Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:10 pm |
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Whoopi Goldberg Defends Vick
This demeans all black people and tries to put them on a level w/Vick IMO. I never understand when people try to make excuses for the dregs amongst them. I wonder how Whoopi would feel about people defending egregious behavior on the part of some good ole Southern white boy simply because that was the culture in which he was raised.
POSTED: 11:19 am EDT September 4, 2007
UPDATED: 12:45 pm EDT September 4, 2007
NEW YORK -- Whoopi Goldberg started her stint on ABC's "The View" Tuesday by coming to the defense of convicted felon Michael Vick.
Just 15 minutes into the show she brought up Vick's conviction on dogfighting charges.
"You know from his background this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from," said Goldberg.
"There are certain things that are indicative to certain parts of our country."
Co-host Joy Behar seemed shocked at Goldberg's statements.
"How about dog torture and dog murdering," Behar asked.
"Unfortunately it's part of the thing," Goldberg replied.
"You're a dog lover. For a lot of people dogs are sport," she added.
Behar continued to shake her head in disgust.
Goldberg said it seemed to her that it took a while for Vick to realize that the charges against him were serious.
"It seemed like a light went off in his head when he realized that this was something the entire country really didn't appreciated, didn't like," Goldberg said, referring to Vick's guilty plea.
She said if the case had involved somebody from New York City her feelings would have been different.
Goldberg pointed out that Vick was raised in the South.
"This is part of his cultural upbringing," said Goldberg.
Co-host Elisabeth Hasselbeck said she was encouraged by the NFL suspending Vick indefinitely.
But Goldberg continued to defend Vick saying "This is a kid who comes from a culture when this is not questioned."
It was Goldberg's first day moderating the talk show. She took over from Rosie O'Donnell who quit the show earlier this year after feuds with Donald Trump and Hasselbeck.
(snip)
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14040573/detail.html
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:44 pm |
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Why didn't you just slam her for what she said, why bring race and racial slangs into it? Who cares what color Vick or Goldberg are? All this does is compound problems, don't you see that? They are both people, plain and simple. Some with more sense then others, but people all the same.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| tulsad
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:49 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: | | Why didn't you just slam her for what she said, why bring race and racial slangs into it? Who cares what color Vick or Goldberg are? All this does is compound problems, don't you see that? They are both people, plain and simple. Some with more sense then others, but people all the same. |
You're absolutely correct, N2K. Whoopi made her assertions based on where Vick was raised; not his race:
"You know from his background this is not an unusual thing for where he comes from," said Goldberg.
"There are certain things that are indicative to certain parts of our country."
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Sparkly Tree
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:09 pm |
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Well, people in the south are offended and disgusted by dogfighting. Whoopi's not right.
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** Banned **
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| tulsad
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:11 pm |
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| scheherazade wrote: | | Well, people in the south are offended and disgusted by dogfighting. Whoopi's not right. |
I believe you, Shez. I know people from the south and none of them participate in, condone, or refer to this cruelty as "sport."
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Sparkly Tree
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:19 pm |
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| Need2Know wrote: | | Why didn't you just slam her for what she said, why bring race and racial slangs into it? Who cares what color Vick or Goldberg are? All this does is compound problems, don't you see that? They are both people, plain and simple. Some with more sense then others, but people all the same. |
Why? Because I've heard this argument made over and over again in recent days from various media sources - which is where I assumed she's coming from - and the argument has been that it is something that is okay in the BLACK culture. Not southern culture.
And if you think good ole southern white boy is a racial slang then we have really become way way too p.c. and falsely offended. GMAFB.
Last edited by dithers on Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| pax
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:21 pm |
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| scheherazade wrote: | | Well, people in the south are offended and disgusted by dogfighting. Whoopi's not right. |
You're right shez.
In New Mexico this past year many forced the governor to finally outlaw cockfighting. The argument that 'it's tradition' is nonsense. Intentional cruelty to animals has no place anywhere.
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:32 pm |
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| dithers wrote: | | Need2Know wrote: | | Why didn't you just slam her for what she said, why bring race and racial slangs into it? Who cares what color Vick or Goldberg are? All this does is compound problems, don't you see that? They are both people, plain and simple. Some with more sense then others, but people all the same. |
Why? Because I've heard this argument made over and over again in recent days from various media sources - which is where I assumed she's coming from - and the argument has been that it is something that is okay in the BLACK culture. Not southern culture.
And if you think good ole southern white boy is a racial slang then we have really become way way too p.c. and falsely offended. GMAFB. |
BTW N2 - If you want me to believe Whoopi is defending white southern culture than that is the biggest laugh I've had in a long time.
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Pretty in Blonde
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:53 pm |
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As you all know, I am not a very politically correct person and I am also not for a color-coded society.
Everyone can put words into Whoopi's mouth or read something else into what she said but she too is responsible for what she said. Whether Vick's attitude and behavior was acceptable considering 'where he came from' or whatever, it is NOT acceptable in today's society -- period, full stop, etc.
Let's call it the way it is and not make excuses for whatever reason. I am sorry that Whoopi chose to do that.
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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Location: France
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:54 pm |
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Okay, they break up dog-fighting rings around here from time to time.
I'd never heard of it till I moved to the south, but that doesn't mean it didn't occur.
How's this?
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-ireland-dog-fighting,0,5261700.story
| Quote: | BBC Exposes Dog Fighting in Ireland
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK | Associated Press Writer
6:21 PM EDT, August 30, 2007
DUBLIN, Ireland - A star of Ireland's Gaelic football league was exposed Thursday as a director of an illegal dog-fighting club, an underground gambling activity that has wrecked the reputation and career of Atlanta Falcons football player Michael Vick.
The 17-month undercover investigation by BBC Northern Ireland's "Spotlight" program, broadcast Thursday night, found evidence of 15 illegal dog-fighting operations in the British territory of 1.7 million people.
The program secretly filmed Gerard Cavlan, a 31-year-old member of the County Tyrone Gaelic football team, discussing his ownership of more than a dozen dogs -- and bragging about how one "hard-mouthed dog" gripped another in its jaws. |
The house across the street from me used to be a crack house. Most of the neighborhood was afraid to deal with it, but when a new neighbor moved in on the other side of the drug house, she and I worked to get the place shut down. It took years and years, but we finally did.
In addition to the drive-by drug deals and the constant loud activity at all hours and the fights and the drugged out people, at one point the crack whore who lived in the house suddenly had three young pit bulls in her back yard. Since the neighbor who was working with me to close down the house had rescued one dog from that yard--a beautiful border collie mix who had horrible heart worm because of the mistreatment he suffered, but whom she nursed back to health--she checked out the dogs.
They were not chained; they had bare wire wrapped around their necks and then wound around the fence. Their necks, of course, were horribly scarred and injured as a result. It was summer with temperatures often over 100 degrees and the dogs rarely had water. They were clearly underfed. They just seemed like friendly puppies, but we knew that the crack whore was probably keeping them to hide them because a dogfighting ring had just been broken up, and her main supplier had dropped the dogs off after that. These puppies were going to be fighters.
My neighbor was trying to figure out what to do. Calling Animal Control would just mean the dogs would be put to sleep because of their condition and the fact that they were pit bulls.
One night, at about 3:00 a.m., my neighbor called me and told me to get outside and bring a wire cutters.
As it turns out, she heard someone in the yard of the crack house and saw a pick up truck with tags from a rural county in the metro area and three dog pens in the back. This redneck lookin' guy was trying to free the dogs, but he hadn't realized they were wired rather than chained. So with my wire cutters, my neighbor and I helped him steal the dogs. He had food and water for them, and they were happy. He said that he had several acres, some of it fenced. He had seen the dogs when he had come by the house (he didn't say why, and we didn't press him on his drug use) and he knew he couldn't leave the dogs there to suffer and die from thirst or illness or to be torn apart in a dogfight.
Thankfully, it wasn't a night where the crack house was really active. They were all seemingly passed out, so we got those dogs loaded and the guy took off.
We could only trust him.
He seemed to love dogs and was literally crying about the condition of those dogs.
Last edited by scheherazade on Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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** Banned **
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| tulsad
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:56 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | As you all know, I am not a very politically correct person and I am also not for a color-coded society.
Everyone can put words into Whoopi's mouth or read something else into what she said but she too is responsible for what she said. Whether Vick's attitude and behavior was acceptable considering 'where he came from' or whatever, it is NOT acceptable in today's society -- period, full stop, etc.
Let's call it the way it is and not make excuses for whatever reason. I am sorry that Whoopi chose to do that. |
 The first (quick) read through, I thought you said that you ARE a very politically correct person. I've never known anyone to admit it - regardless of how entrenched and brain-dead they are.
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Sparkly Tree
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:04 pm |
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| dithers wrote: | | dithers wrote: | | Need2Know wrote: | | Why didn't you just slam her for what she said, why bring race and racial slangs into it? Who cares what color Vick or Goldberg are? All this does is compound problems, don't you see that? They are both people, plain and simple. Some with more sense then others, but people all the same. |
Why? Because I've heard this argument made over and over again in recent days from various media sources - which is where I assumed she's coming from - and the argument has been that it is something that is okay in the BLACK culture. Not southern culture.
And if you think good ole southern white boy is a racial slang then we have really become way way too p.c. and falsely offended. GMAFB. |
BTW N2 - If you want me to believe Whoopi is defending white southern culture than that is the biggest laugh I've had in a long time. |
ITA, Dithers.
It's blacks themselves who have brought race into this. Look at that guy from Atlanta NAACP who came out immediately and defended Vick....that was a while back, I probably don't have the link anymore....Oh yeh, Whoopi is most defenitely sticking up for a brother. You better believe it.
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:09 pm |
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Here it is, I found it.
Atlanta NAACP statement
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/22/vick/index.html
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The head of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP said Wednesday that Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has made mistakes but that they should not cost him his football career with the NFL.
NFL star Michael Vick has accepted an offer to plead guilty to conspiracy charges in a dogfighting case.
Vick is expected to plead guilty Monday to federal conspiracy charges in an illegal dogfighting operation.
R.L. White, president of the Atlanta chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said his organization does not condone dogfighting or any other illegal activity, but he told reporters that Vick should be given a chance to redeem himself.
"In some instances, I believe Michael Vick has received more negative press than if he would've killed a human being," White said. "The way he is being persecuted, he wouldn't have been persecuted that much had he killed somebody."
White said he believes Vick cut a deal rather than roll the dice on a trial and take a chance on being found guilty, but "whatever he's done wrongly, he needs to pay for it.
White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable.
He urged the National Football League, the Atlanta Falcons and Vick's commercial sponsors not to dump the troubled athlete.
"We feel that whatever the courts demand as a punishment for what he has done, once he has paid his debt to society, then he should be treated like any other person in the NFL," White said.
Falcons owner Arthur Blank and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell have said they will not make a decision on Vick's future immediately.
After Vick's indictment last month, Goodell ordered the quarterback not to report to training camp until the league completed its review of the case. The NFL is considering what, if any, sanctions it should impose on Vick.
When Vick appears Monday in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, the details of his plea agreement will be made public. The judge in the case will have the final say over the plea agreement.
The deal, if accepted by the judge, means the 27-year-old football star will avoid more serious charges that would have been considered by a grand jury that convened this week.
Sources close to the case have said federal prosecutors offered to recommend an 18- to 36-month prison sentence for the suspended star quarterback for his alleged role in the dogfighting operation. Vick's attorneys were trying to reduce that to less than a year.
Vick's three co-defendants in the dogfighting case already accepted agreements to plead guilty in exchange for reduced sentences.
Court documents released last week showed that two of Vick's alleged partners said he helped kill dogs that didn't fight well and that the three men "executed approximately eight dogs" in ways that included hanging and drowning.
The dogs were killed because they fared poorly in "testing" sessions in April at Vick's property in Virginia, where the dog fighting venture was based, according to documents released following guilty pleas from two co-defendants -- Purnell Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis Phillips, 28, of Atlanta. See what Vick's former co-defendants admitted »
Peace and Phillips pleaded guilty Friday. A third man, Tony Taylor, 34, of Hampton, Virginia, pleaded guilty July 30.
In the court documents, Peace and Phillips said that the money behind the Bad Newz Kennels dogfighting operation came "almost exclusively" from Vick, and they told prosecutors that other accusations in the 18-page indictment are true.
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And this remains one of the damn DUMBEST things I've heard yet:
White also said he didn't understand the uproar over dogfighting, when hunting deer and other animals is perfectly acceptable.
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Race was brought into the Vick case from the get-go. And it was brought into it by blacks themselves.
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| pausebreak
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:11 pm |
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Dog fighting is an insidious underground organized crime that deserves much legal and political scrutiny. The blood sport, once sanctioned by aristocracy, embraced by medieval gentry and later promoted by colonial and Victorian miscreants, is now completely outlawed in the United States. Notwithstanding the absolute prohibition in America, it has reached epidemic proportions in all urban communities and continues to thrive in many rural areas as well. The collective American conscience has long been repulsed by the undeniable brutality within the culture of dogfighting, but the law enforcement community has been regrettably lax in appreciating the full scope and gravity of the problem.
<snip>
The professional fighters are demographically diverse and geographically diffuse, unlike the mid-level dog-fighters who operate primarily within specific regions. The mid-level fighters are considered hobbyists,[34] enthusiasts, or fanciers. They typically remain within a specific geographic network, are acquainted with one another, and tend to return to predetermined fight venues repeatedly.[35] There are both urban and rural networks of dogfighting enthusiasts and the fighting subcultures largely depend on the culture of the larger regional community. The enthusiasts, like the professional dogfighters, typically have extensive criminal backgrounds, but they may appear to be highly respected community figures.[36] Spectators at the fights range from hard core criminals[37] to high profile public figures[38] and from law enforcement agents[39] to families with children.[40]
<snip>
Many recent dog fighting raids, include those in Flint, MI (2003), Buffalo, NY (2004), Port St. Lucie, FL (2004), Jones County, GA (2004), and Oklahoma City, OK (2004), have resulted in the infiltration of major drug distribution networks, and the arrest of the drug kingpins who regularly organized and attended the dog fights.[45]
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm
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Soopa Soopa Bitch !!
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:21 pm |
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But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact.
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** Banned **
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:28 pm |
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| scheherazade wrote: |
But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact. |
Well then, hopefully they'll see fit to disavow Whoopi's too.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:37 pm |
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| dithers wrote: | | scheherazade wrote: |
But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact. |
Well then, hopefully they'll see fit to disavow Whoopi's too. |
Whoopi wasn't speaking for the NAACP.
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** Banned **
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:05 pm |
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| scheherazade wrote: |
But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact. |
I don't recall reading that, but it could well be. Doesn't negate the fact that, as I said, race was brought into the case by blacks.
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:21 pm |
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Humane Society Auctions Off Vick's Note to Self
Posted Sep 4th 2007 1:25PM by TMZ Staff
Filed under: Celebrity Justice
On August 27, Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick plead guilty to a dogfighting charge, and the following day held a press conference in Richmond, Virg., apologizing for his involvement in the Bad Newz Kennels dogfighting ring.
After Vick's four-minute speech, a rep with the Humane Society of the United States went up to the podium to retrieve his microphone, and found the note left by Vick containing his talking points.
Vick's big idea: apologize, apologize, apologize. The six-point speech calls for him to "apologize for what I've done;" apologize to his coach and team; tell young kids that "I acted immature;" ask for "forgiveness and understanding;" "take full responsibility for my actions;" and remind people that "we all make mistakes."
At the very bottom of the note was a reminder that "dogs have suffered."
"Watching video of the event, I recall Vick reading through his talking points. I don't recall him getting to those words at the end. No, for some reason, he didn't get to the dogs on whom he inflicted such tortures," wrote Humane Society blogger Wayne Pacelle on A Humane Nation. "The biggest apology of all was left unspoken-to the dogs who suffered and who died so horribly at his hand."
The Humane Society has put the note up for auction. Proceeds will benefit the Humane Society's Animal Cruelty Response and Reward Fund.
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:24 pm |
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| SavannahStar wrote: | | scheherazade wrote: |
But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact. |
I don't recall reading that, but it could well be. Doesn't negate the fact that, as I said, race was brought into the case by blacks. |
I know you're not a racist, though this sounds like you are.
Of course race is more of an issue to blacks.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20393221/
NAACP president says Vick 'is not a victim'
'He absolutely must account for what he has done,' Hayes says of QB
Updated: 12:25 p.m. CT Aug 23, 2007
ATLANTA - Falcons quarterback Michael Vick “is not a victim” and should be held responsible for his actions involving a dogfighting ring in Virginia, the national president of the NAACP said Thursday
“He absolutely must account for what he has done,” Dennis Courtland Hayes, interim president and CEO of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said in an interview with The Associated Press. He had earlier given similar comments to NBC’s “Today” show.
Hayes’ comments came a day after the head of the NAACP’s Atlanta chapter said Vick should be allowed to return to football after the case is resolved.
“As a society, we should aid in his rehabilitation and welcome a new Michael Vick back into the community without a permanent loss of his career in football,” Atlanta NAACP President R.L. White said.
Hayes said White and others who have come to Vick’s defense are expressing an overarching frustration with disparities in the criminal justice system.
“People need to understand the backdrop as some in the African-American community make their expressions of support,” Hayes said. “That backdrop includes anger and distrust with the criminal justice system that disproportionately pays attention to African-Americans and Hispanics.
“While no dog deserves to be mistreated, the backdrop includes the perception among some African-Americans that the criminal justice system treats them like animals and that nobody seems willing to do anything about the disparity.”
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** Banned **
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:45 pm |
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| Quote: | SS wrote:
Race was brought into the Vick case from the get-go. And it was brought into it by blacks themselves. |
| Quote: | Sceherazade wrote:
I know you're not a racist, though this sounds like you are.
Of course race is more of an issue to blacks. |
I don't believe what SS said sounds racist in the least. How can we have any kind of dialogue about race if any time a white person tries to discuss it and doesn't stay in lockstep behind the p.c. groupthink they are labeled as racist? At the beginning of the sentence you say you know she isn't racist then go on to accuse her of such in the second half of the sentence. Which is it? Do you believe she is racist or don't you? I think it's terrible that good people are continually accused of such things simply because they share a candid thought. That doesn't make a person a racist. We have so lost sight of what the word and the entire concept means.
Why is race more important to blacks? If any of the comments here can be construed as racist I believe that one comes closer to the mark. And why the bolding of "of course"?
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Pretty in Blonde
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| pax
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:50 pm |
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| SavannahStar wrote: | | scheherazade wrote: |
But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact. |
I don't recall reading that, but it could well be. Doesn't negate the fact that, as I said, race was brought into the case by blacks. |
Did Whoopi Goldberg say this is a race issue, or that she's speaking for blacks?
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:55 pm |
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Very interesting. 
| Quote: | Hayes said White and others who have come to Vick’s defense are expressing an overarching frustration with disparities in the criminal justice system.
“People need to understand the backdrop as some in the African-American community make their expressions of support,” Hayes said. “That backdrop includes anger and distrust with the criminal justice system that disproportionately pays attention to African-Americans and Hispanics.
“While no dog deserves to be mistreated, the backdrop includes the perception among some African-Americans that the criminal justice system treats them like animals and that nobody seems willing to do anything about the disparity.” |
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:57 pm |
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| pax wrote: | | SavannahStar wrote: | | scheherazade wrote: |
But the national NAACP disavowed the statements of the Atlanta chapter. Quite some time ago, in fact. |
I don't recall reading that, but it could well be. Doesn't negate the fact that, as I said, race was brought into the case by blacks. |
Did Whoopi Goldberg say this is a race issue, or that she's speaking for blacks? |
Don't do a Wabbi on me now. 
Did I say that Whoopi Goldberg says this is a race issue, or that she's speaking for blacks?
She doesn't have to say this is a race issue......and it's NOT, except for SOME blacks, and I include her in that belief. I think she is most definitely speaking as a black woman, about a black brother.
As we used to say on CTV: JMO.
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**SuperStar**
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| scheherazade
Posted:
Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:01 pm |
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| dithers wrote: | | Quote: | SS wrote:
Race was brought into the Vick case from the get-go. And it was brought into it by blacks themselves. |
| Quote: | Sceherazade wrote:
I know you're not a racist, though this sounds like you are.
Of course race is more of an issue to blacks. |
I don't believe what SS said sounds racist in the least. How can we have any kind of dialogue about race if any time a white person tries to discuss it and doesn't stay in lockstep behind the p.c. groupthink they are labeled as racist? At the beginning of the sentence you say you know she isn't racist then go on to accuse her of such in the second half of the sentence. Which is it? Do you believe she is racist or don't you? I think it's terrible that good people are continually accused of such things simply because they share a candid thought. That doesn't make a person a racist. We have so lost sight of what the word and the entire concept means.
Why is race more important to blacks? If any of the comments here can be construed as racist I believe that one comes closer to the mark. And why the bolding of "of course"? |
You really don't know that???
Really??
I don't think Savannah is racist, but the sentences she posted could sound racist.
You really don't get that distinction???
Really????
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/blckcost%20connect.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13560066/
http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwcou/lifeshops/blackshades.htm
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/5/845
Last edited by scheherazade on Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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