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resigned
 Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:01 pm |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Who would look for a ransom for someone who left of her own volition?
There is not now, and never was, a million dollar reward. The closest thing to there having been one was a pledge from Joe Mammana. Not cash, a pledge. |
I don't believe that Joe Mammanna pledged the million dollars.
I think it was Dr. Phil that offered the largest part of that pledge - JMO
I also don't believe that Natalee Holloway "disappeared" before 11 PM on May 29, 2005. She was seen at Carlos and Charlies after that time and pictures have been shown to prove that. She left Carlos and Charlies with Joran (in the Kalpoe Brothers car) Neither Joran, nor the Kalpoes Brothers dispute that fact.
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Click your heels together...
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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| jolari
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:07 pm |
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| sarge wrote: |
ALE,KLPD,FBI and the OM all know that she did not run away. That is why there is still an investigation going on and why Joran is still a suspect. |
I agree 100% & I think they are basing that on what is contained in all the files that they all have. IMO they have much more info and have interviewed and investigated more people than what has been posted on the internet or presented by the media. Obviously they do not have enough to solve the case, find Natalee, and/or successfully charge anyone. Sad.
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| Elaine S
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:22 pm |
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| Gregor wrote: |
I chaperoned eight high school junkets. No hotel ever allowed charges to the kids' rooms, and if the chaperones wanted charges, they left a credit card number at the desk. |
This wasn't a high school sponsored trip to begin with. I doubt the telephones were not operational in the rooms, and my understanding is the so called chaperones were not there for the purpose of having the responsibility of what the kids were spending/not spending or charging. Hell, they obviously didn't even know what the kids were doing! I doubt the Holiday Inn would just allow everyone to leave without checking out, and giving one person from each room an itemized bill/receipt.
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Eline
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: Pennsylvania
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| Obscuregawdess
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:25 pm |
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I only caught the last part of the A&E show. I'll look for it to air again or watch it online if I can.
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"Bratty Mama Leci"
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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Location: Kentucky
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| Elaine S
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:28 pm |
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| jolari wrote: |
I agree 100% & I think they are basing that on what is contained in all the files that they all have. IMO they have much more info and have interviewed and investigated more people than what has been posted on the internet or presented by the media. Obviously they do not have enough to solve the case, find Natalee, and/or successfully charge anyone. Sad. |
I couldn't agree with you more, jolari. There's a reason Joran's still a person of interest after all this time in the eyes of ALE.
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Eline
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: Pennsylvania
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| Linda in L.A.
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:41 pm |
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Hi Gregor...Joran may have been a 17 year old kid when Natalee came up missing...but he wasn't one when he told some of his latest lies. I would assume he has had to grow up fast...but it doesn't seem like he has.
I don't mind discussing why Beth acted as she has at times...but would rather not discuss it as an answer as to why Joran has. Its 2 different people...with 2 different problems. One is a mother who has lost her daughter...one is a kid/young man who is the last seen with that daughter.
Joran is still considered a suspect. Joran comes from a family where his father was a judge in training. Certainly his father has counseled him and I have never seen a problem with that. But please don't tell me Joran hasn't had a clue what some of his "stories" could do to harm him.
IF Joran didn't know with the first round of lies...I'll give you that. But with the 2nd round and now this interview (and no I don't believe he did it knowing he couldn't trust Patrick)...then it would most definetly seem he has some type of a problem. At this point...I think he knows the harm he is doing and just doesn't care. I think he believes its all a big game and he will continue to get away with playing people.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:28 pm |
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| resigned wrote: |
I don't believe that Joe Mammanna pledged the million dollars.
I think it was Dr. Phil that offered the largest part of that pledge - JMO
I also don't believe that Natalee Holloway "disappeared" before 11 PM on May 29, 2005. She was seen at Carlos and Charlies after that time and pictures have been shown to prove that. She left Carlos and Charlies with Joran (in the Kalpoe Brothers car) Neither Joran, nor the Kalpoes Brothers dispute that fact. |
Joe Mammana had pledged $500,000.00. The family never said where the other $500,000.00 was to come from, but the conditions that were set to collect the reward pretty much guaranteed it would never be collected.
Several of Natalee's classmates who were at C&C's said they didn't see her there that night.
The only picture I've ever seen that was supposed to be Natalee at C&C's that night doesn't look very much like Natalee, and we don't know when it was taken.
Who, among those who knew Natalee, said they saw her in Deepak's car?
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:35 pm |
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| Elaine S wrote: |
This wasn't a high school sponsored trip to begin with. I doubt the telephones were not operational in the rooms, and my understanding is the so called chaperones were not there for the purpose of having the responsibility of what the kids were spending/not spending or charging. Hell, they obviously didn't even know what the kids were doing! I doubt the Holiday Inn would just allow everyone to leave without checking out, and giving one person from each room an itemized bill/receipt. |
Whether it was a high school sponsored trip or not, there were underage kids in the group, and since it was a group of high school graduates, and the hotel knew this, there's no way they would extend credit to any of them.
I'm sure the kids could receive calls and make collect calls.
I didn't suggest the chaperones were, or should have been responsible for what the kids spent.
I'd bet none of the kids even registered, but the chaperones did.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:46 pm |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: | Hi Gregor...Joran may have been a 17 year old kid when Natalee came up missing...but he wasn't one when he told some of his latest lies. I would assume he has had to grow up fast...but it doesn't seem like he has.
I don't mind discussing why Beth acted as she has at times...but would rather not discuss it as an answer as to why Joran has. Its 2 different people...with 2 different problems. One is a mother who has lost her daughter...one is a kid/young man who is the last seen with that daughter.
Joran is still considered a suspect. Joran comes from a family where his father was a judge in training. Certainly his father has counseled him and I have never seen a problem with that. But please don't tell me Joran hasn't had a clue what some of his "stories" could do to harm him.
IF Joran didn't know with the first round of lies...I'll give you that. But with the 2nd round and now this interview (and no I don't believe he did it knowing he couldn't trust Patrick)...then it would most definetly seem he has some type of a problem. At this point...I think he knows the harm he is doing and just doesn't care. I think he believes its all a big game and he will continue to get away with playing people. |
I'm afraid I disagree with just about everything you say.
I believe Beth is responsible for Joran's actions to a very great extent.
As to Joran and Patrick, if you take twenty some hours of tape and edit it down to a few minutes, you can get your subject to say just about anything you want people to hear.
I think Joran thought he could trust Patrick. I believe he told Patrick what he thought would get him what he wanted from Patrick.
I believe Joran doesn't have a clue as to what happened to Natalee, so I can't see how anything he does hurts anyone other than his family and himself.
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| resigned
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:55 pm |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Joe Mammana had pledged $500,000.00. The family never said where the other $500,000.00 was to come from, but the conditions that were set to collect the reward pretty much guaranteed it would never be collected.
Several of Natalee's classmates who were at C&C's said they didn't see her there that night.
The only picture I've ever seen that was supposed to be Natalee at C&C's that night doesn't look very much like Natalee, and we don't know when it was taken.
Who, among those who knew Natalee, said they saw her in Deepak's car? |
I don't ever recall reading that Joe Mammana pledged $500, 0000. The reward was raised to $1 million toward the end of July 2005. I don't even think that Joe was anywhere around the Holloway case at that time.
The suspects and other students (Lee Broughton for one) say Natalee was at Carlos and Charlies.
Looks like her to me.
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Click your heels together...
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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Location: "Onboard" pathenry's desk
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:09 pm |
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| resigned wrote: |
I don't ever recall reading that Joe Mammana pledged $500, 0000. The reward was raised to $1 million toward the end of July 2005. I don't even think that Joe was anywhere around the Holloway case at that time.
The suspects and other students (Lee Broughton for one) say Natalee was at Carlos and Charlies.
Looks like her to me. |
Where was the reward supposed to come from? The reward trust at Amsouth?
I didn't claim no one said they saw Natalee at C&C's, I said some students who said they were there said they didn't see her.
I'll agree the girl in the picture is wearing a top that Natalee was seen wearing earlier that day. Do you know who took that picture, and exactly when it was taken?
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| resigned
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:22 pm |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Where was the reward supposed to come from? The reward trust at Amsouth?
I didn't claim no one said they saw Natalee at C&C's, I said some students who said they were there said they didn't see her.
I'll agree the girl in the picture is wearing a top that Natalee was seen wearing earlier that day. Do you know who took that picture, and exactly when it was taken? |
An anonymous donor or donors pledged the money, is what I recall. I think that Dr. Phil pledge a large part of that amount. Do I know for a fact? No.
I didn't claim that you claimed ..." " "....I just cited that Natalee was seen at Carlos and Charlies.
It looks like Natalee Holloway to me...hair, clothes, face etc etc.
No, I don't know who took the picture -the FBI does though and I believe they checked it out to make sure it wasn't manipulated in any manner:
| Quote: | | The photo, shown publicly for the first time by 48 Hours, was discovered by the FBI in the camera of one of Natalee's classmates | .
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Click your heels together...
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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Location: "Onboard" pathenry's desk
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| wehwalt
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:27 pm |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Where was the reward supposed to come from? The reward trust at Amsouth?
I didn't claim no one said they saw Natalee at C&C's, I said some students who said they were there said they didn't see her.
I'll agree the girl in the picture is wearing a top that Natalee was seen wearing earlier that day. Do you know who took that picture, and exactly when it was taken? |
A number of people and entities pledged to the reward fund. But remember, the million was only if Natalee were found alive, which became surpassingly unlikely by the time the reward was raised to a million in late July.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:06 pm |
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| resigned wrote: |
<snip>
I didn't claim that you claimed ..." " "....I just cited that Natalee was seen at Carlos and Charlies.
It looks like Natalee Holloway to me...hair, clothes, face etc etc.
No, I don't know who took the picture -the FBI does though and I believe they checked it out to make sure it wasn't manipulated in any manner |
So if some kids saw Natale, and some didn't, I'd say that's a wash.
If someone put the time on his camera ahead five hours, and took the picture at seven o'clock, it would be timestamped midnight, and there would be no evidence of manipulation.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:10 pm |
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| wehwalt wrote: |
A number of people and entities pledged to the reward fund. But remember, the million was only if Natalee were found alive, which became surpassingly unlikely by the time the reward was raised to a million in late July. |
At least some of the posters had the condition that Natalee had to be safely returned to the U.S. in order for the reward to be collected.
If Natalee were found alive and well, and didn't want to return to the U.S., how would anyone ever collect the reward?
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| resigned
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:11 pm |
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| Gregor wrote: |
So if some kids saw Natale, and some didn't, I'd say that's a wash.
If someone put the time on his camera ahead five hours, and took the picture at seven o'clock, it would be timestamped midnight, and there would be no evidence of manipulation. |
All part of the Master Plan? 
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Click your heels together...
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| wehwalt
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:16 pm |
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It amazes me, some of these conspiracies that are alleged to have existed to protect the VDS's. Some of them require half the island to be in cahoots (that's the restaurant next to C'n'Cs)
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| Gregor
Posted:
Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:38 pm |
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| wehwalt wrote: | | It amazes me, some of these conspiracies that are alleged to have existed to protect the VDS's. Some of them require half the island to be in cahoots (that's the restaurant next to C'n'Cs) |
And the conspiracy that's covering up for Joran includes only the ALE, the KLPD, the Netherlands judiciary and the FBI.
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| Linda in L.A.
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:37 am |
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| Gregor wrote: |
I'm afraid I disagree with just about everything you say.
I believe Beth is responsible for Joran's actions to a very great extent.
As to Joran and Patrick, if you take twenty some hours of tape and edit it down to a few minutes, you can get your subject to say just about anything you want people to hear.
I think Joran thought he could trust Patrick. I believe he told Patrick what he thought would get him what he wanted from Patrick.
I believe Joran doesn't have a clue as to what happened to Natalee, so I can't see how anything he does hurts anyone other than his family and himself. |
Its ok Gregor that you disagree...I have no problem with that since I disagree with you also.
Joran had problems before Beth ever came to the island. So no...I don't agree Beth is responsible for any of Joran's problems.
We do agree on Joran trusting Patrick tho. Although if I'm not mistaken, Joran said he didn't trust him and was just testing him (more or less). I'll tell you one thing...you don't go handing out names if you are attempting to impress a criminal. That would tend to make them more than a bit edgy because they would be wondering if that person could be trusted with their name, etc.
Ok...now's the time for people to say but he didn't give out a real name. Doesn't matter. He gave out a name even after he stated he would never ever give up the person.
As for editing the tape...well...of course most of us don't have the ability to view the entire tape. ALE did...and I sure haven't heard them saying anything about it being edited and taken out of context (maybe I missed that???).
I believe what I've read is they said because of Joran's personality problem, his admittance that he lies, etc. they could not continue investigating (??) the tape. Sorry for all the question marks...but I'm going from memory here and may be a mistaken on some of the wording.
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| Linda in L.A.
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:40 am |
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Joran, Deepak and Satish seem to think Natalee was at CnC and that it was at closing time?? What difference does it make what timestamp was on the camera?
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| Gregor
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:54 am |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: | | Joran, Deepak and Satish seem to think Natalee was at CnC and that it was at closing time?? What difference does it make what timestamp was on the camera? |
My point is that I don't believe it was Natalee that was with Joran.
A girl walked up to Joran and said, "Hi, I'm Natalee." I'm sure she didn't show her ID, and he didn't ask to see it. He accepted the fact she was Natalee.
Regarding the timestamp on the photo in question, my point is if that is a picture of Natalee, it could have been taken anytime. I don't have any idea what the timestamp is on the picture, but the timestamp doesn't prove what time the picture was taken.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:04 am |
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| Linda in L.A. wrote: |
Its ok Gregor that you disagree...I have no problem with that since I disagree with you also.
Joran had problems before Beth ever came to the island. So no...I don't agree Beth is responsible for any of Joran's problems.
We do agree on Joran trusting Patrick tho. Although if I'm not mistaken, Joran said he didn't trust him and was just testing him (more or less). I'll tell you one thing...you don't go handing out names if you are attempting to impress a criminal. That would tend to make them more than a bit edgy because they would be wondering if that person could be trusted with their name, etc.
Ok...now's the time for people to say but he didn't give out a real name. Doesn't matter. He gave out a name even after he stated he would never ever give up the person.
As for editing the tape...well...of course most of us don't have the ability to view the entire tape. ALE did...and I sure haven't heard them saying anything about it being edited and taken out of context (maybe I missed that???).
I believe what I've read is they said because of Joran's personality problem, his admittance that he lies, etc. they could not continue investigating (??) the tape. Sorry for all the question marks...but I'm going from memory here and may be a mistaken on some of the wording. |
Beth has told so many lies about Joran, and started so many rumors about him, I find it difficult to believe anything that can be attributed to her, and just about all the rumors about Joran have come directly from Beth.
Other than the fact Patrick's tape was edited, the problem I have with it is that by Patrick's own admission, Joran's judgment was impaired throughout the entire taping process. In many ways it's worse than the Skeeterized tape.
I don't remember hearing much of anything from ALE.
How can you be sure ALE and/or the prosecutor heard all the recordings? Because DeVries said so?
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| sarge
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:25 am |
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| Gregor wrote: |
My point is that I don't believe it was Natalee that was with Joran.
A girl walked up to Joran and said, "Hi, I'm Natalee." I'm sure she didn't show her ID, and he didn't ask to see it. He accepted the fact she was Natalee.
Regarding the timestamp on the photo in question, my point is if that is a picture of Natalee, it could have been taken anytime. I don't have any idea what the timestamp is on the picture, but the timestamp doesn't prove what time the picture was taken. |
She even wore Natalee's panties?
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| liesbeth
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:39 am |
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Last edited by liesbeth on Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| resigned
Posted:
Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:01 pm |
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| sarge wrote: |
She even wore Natalee's panties? |
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Click your heels together...
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