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Need2Know
 Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:35 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: |
Wow,
You know as well as I do people lie for a reason and they are not always for the same reason. BOTH "sides" lie. No more hypocrisy. Happy!! 
Beth et al lie because they're in denial and want to paint a pretty picture. Could that be considered deceitful. Sure.
Joran lies because he doesn't want to take responsibility for what he has done. This to is deceitful.
I just happen to think the weight of his deceit is greater than that of Beth's. |
MUCH MUCH which is the point trying to be hammered yet keeps missing its mark with some people.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:13 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
Your bolded portion above is also an absolute and not necessarily true. Have you ever been involved in criminal investigations? Your statement above would lead one to believe that there would be mounds upon mounds of "evidence" when that is not the case.
Natalee was alone with Joran and they were on a beach; no credible and/or neutral witness that can be substantiated and PROVEN has come forward and given a formal, sworn statement to LE saying they saw Natalee alive and breathing after her encounter with Joran.
Could Joran have placed Natalee in the water by some means, gotten back to shore and gotten home leaving no evidence? Of course he could, there is no doubt about that. Could it have happened some other way without leaving any forensic or other material evidence? Of course it could have, happens often.
Natalee has vanished and the simple truth of this, over three years into it, is that Joran and only Joran is the most likely person who knows and/or was also involved in making her vanish. No other theory, however you want to theorize it, leaves any of us with more reasonable suspicion than this.
No, he cannot be prosecuted for what we know or have, that is a given, and he probably never will, that still does not give a person the right to tell another person that Joran CANNOT be the one because no evidence exists; that theory only works when a defendant has already been charged and is sitting in the defendan't chair before a judge or jury, not on here where the rational minds can look at what is known and come up with the most reasonable explanation, like it or not from those who simply will not accept Joran's involvement in this.
This has been discussed in every way, shape and form on here and elsewhere, and you will see that many of the people here have come to the same conclusion that I have come to and they are no longer basing it on consipiracies or unproven and supposed facts from statements given in the beginning of the case or from characterizations of supposed actions based solely and merely on speculation of perceived behavior, actions or words. |
I really don't mind your espousing fantastic, improbable or impossible theories, but please don't twist or distort what I say in an attempt to make them credible.
Nowhere did I allude to "mounds upon mounds of evidence."
Your statement that no witness has claimed to have seen Natalee alive after she and Joran left Deepak's car would not prove she wasn't, but it's blatantly false since at least two of her friends, people who know and would recognize her, have said they did indeed see her later that morning.
Even if Joran had an inflatable boat which the Kalpoes didn't notice, or suddenly acquired the ability to walk on water, he simply didn't have the time to take a body far enough from shore to dispose of it.
The only two things that prevent anyone from considering any theory that doesn't involve Joran are a closed mind, or an agenda.
To suggest that no one has the right to claim Joran cannot be guilty of a crime because there is no evidence is pompous and arrogant, not to mention simply untrue.
If you, and those who agree with you really believe you have the right to dictate what others may think, or what theories they may present, aside from being insulting, is indicative a reality check is sorely needed.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:19 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: |
<snip>
Joran lies because he doesn't want to take responsibility for what he has done.
<snip> |
Exactly what qualifies you to make this determination?
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:37 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: | | Need2Know wrote: |
Your bolded portion above is also an absolute and not necessarily true. Have you ever been involved in criminal investigations? Your statement above would lead one to believe that there would be mounds upon mounds of "evidence" when that is not the case.
Natalee was alone with Joran and they were on a beach; no credible and/or neutral witness that can be substantiated and PROVEN has come forward and given a formal, sworn statement to LE saying they saw Natalee alive and breathing after her encounter with Joran.
Could Joran have placed Natalee in the water by some means, gotten back to shore and gotten home leaving no evidence? Of course he could, there is no doubt about that. Could it have happened some other way without leaving any forensic or other material evidence? Of course it could have, happens often.
Natalee has vanished and the simple truth of this, over three years into it, is that Joran and only Joran is the most likely person who knows and/or was also involved in making her vanish. No other theory, however you want to theorize it, leaves any of us with more reasonable suspicion than this.
No, he cannot be prosecuted for what we know or have, that is a given, and he probably never will, that still does not give a person the right to tell another person that Joran CANNOT be the one because no evidence exists; that theory only works when a defendant has already been charged and is sitting in the defendan't chair before a judge or jury, not on here where the rational minds can look at what is known and come up with the most reasonable explanation, like it or not from those who simply will not accept Joran's involvement in this.
This has been discussed in every way, shape and form on here and elsewhere, and you will see that many of the people here have come to the same conclusion that I have come to and they are no longer basing it on consipiracies or unproven and supposed facts from statements given in the beginning of the case or from characterizations of supposed actions based solely and merely on speculation of perceived behavior, actions or words. |
I really don't mind your espousing fantastic, improbable or impossible theories, but please don't twist or distort what I say in an attempt to make them credible.
Nowhere did I allude to "mounds upon mounds of evidence."
Your statement that no witness has claimed to have seen Natalee alive after she and Joran left Deepak's car would not prove she wasn't, but it's blatantly false since at least two of her friends, people who know and would recognize her, have said they did indeed see her later that morning.
Even if Joran had an inflatable boat which the Kalpoes didn't notice, or suddenly acquired the ability to walk on water, he simply didn't have the time to take a body far enough from shore to dispose of it.
The only two things that prevent anyone from considering any theory that doesn't involve Joran are a closed mind, or an agenda.
To suggest that no one has the right to claim Joran cannot be guilty of a crime because there is no evidence is pompous and arrogant, not to mention simply untrue.
If you, and those who agree with you really believe you have the right to dictate what others may think, or what theories they may present, aside from being insulting, is indicative a reality check is sorely needed. |
Truly, the ones espousing fantastic, improbable or impossible theories are those who have taken up a cause of somehow trying to prove a MB conspiracy. You tell me what makes more sense, that or the facts pointing to Joran? Also tell me why the investigators who really know but lack evidence to charge completely disgaree with you on this? Your suppositions and absolutes about what Joran could or could not have done with her body in the water are invalid. I also find it odd that you fail to see that evidence may simply not exist, that does not negate the fact that she is missing and likely dead and that Joran and only Joran knows the how and the why. My desire is to not go back and forth with you on this. You can believe all the conspiracies you like, Joran still remains the only likely suspect.
Last edited by Need2Know on Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| K_Meine
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:03 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
Exactly what qualifies you to make this determination? |
I would say my MA in Psychology.
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:39 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
Truly, the ones espousing fantastic, improbable or impossible theories are those who have taken up a cause of somehow trying to prove a MB conspiracy. You tell me what makes more sense, that or the facts pointing to Joran? Also tell me why the investigators who really know but lack evidence to charge completely disgaree with you on this? Your suppositions and absolutes about what Joran could or could not have done with her body in the water are invalid, like it or not. I also find it odd that you fail to see that evidence may simply not exist, that does not negate the fact that she is missing and likely dead and that Joran and only Joran knows the how and the why. My desire is to not go back and forth with you on this. You can believe all the conspiracies you like, Joran still remains the only likely suspect, period. |
There are no facts that point to Joran, there is only conjecture, supposition, false witnesses and manufactured evidence.
If evidence isn't important, why is it important to manufacture it?
What I believe Joran could have, or couldn't have done, are not suppositions, they're a matter of physical limitations. The boy simply couldn't destroy matter or suspend time, but if you want to believe he could, feel free to do so. They're the only things that support your theories
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:43 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: |
I would say my MA in Psychology. |
Like all anonymous posters, you can say anything you can imagine.
Unfortunately, the general tenor of your posts doesn't support that statement. Do you want to try for phrenology or physiognomy?
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:00 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
There are no facts that point to Joran, there is only conjecture, supposition, false witnesses and manufactured evidence.
If evidence isn't important, why is it important to manufacture it?
What I believe Joran could have, or couldn't have done, are not suppositions, they're a matter of physical limitations. The boy simply couldn't destroy matter or suspend time, but if you want to believe he could, feel free to do so. They're the only things that support your theories |
We are at that place called a stalmate because you are viewing all of this simply and only by whether or not evidence exists to arrest and prosecute and that is not what this discussion is about, we agree on that point. The really important thing is that your theories do not line up with the theories of the investigators. There are plenty of facts that point to Joran which is why he is the only one who has ever truly been a suspect. Jossy Mansur leaves a bad taste in most mouths, but again, that does not negate the obvious. You can think you know for a fact that Joran could not have taken her body out in the water and let her float away, but you again would be talking in absolutes and you are not qualified to do that in this regard.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:12 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
We are at that place called a stalmate because you are viewing all of this simply and only by whether or not evidence exists to arrest and prosecute and that is not what this discussion is about, we agree on that point. The really important thing is that your theories do not line up with the theories of the investigators. There are plenty of facts that point to Joran which is why he is the only one who has ever truly been a suspect. Jossy Mansur leaves a bad taste in most mouths, but again, that does not negate the obvious. You can think you know for a fact that Joran could not have taken her body out in the water and let her float away, but you again would be talking in absolutes and you are not qualified to do that in this regard. |
That Joran could not have taken her body out in the water and let her float away is not my conclusion. It is the conclusion of everyone qualified to make such a conclusion who has commented on this case.
The only investigators who have actually offered theories are people like Art Wood, T. J. Ward and Tim what's-his-name. I certainly hope they haven't influenced your thinking.
I'll wait for an official pronouncement from ALE, the Dutch authorities and the FBI.
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| K_Meine
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:19 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
There are no facts that point to Joran, there is only conjecture, supposition, false witnesses and manufactured evidence.
If evidence isn't important, why is it important to manufacture it?
What I believe Joran could have, or couldn't have done, are not suppositions, they're a matter of physical limitations. The boy simply couldn't destroy matter or suspend time, but if you want to believe he could, feel free to do so. They're the only things that support your theories |
Who said evidence wasn't important? If it wasn't we might be somewhere.
Sometimes even I am unwilling to accept that this roller coaster of an investigation could have been fairly simple yet many want it to be more juicy and interesting. Because we know what appears to be nothing more now then we knew then. Consider the possibility of what some have thought, and sometimes myself, was a possible scenario:
Natalee dies for some reason (ie. drugs, booze, natural causes, etc)
Joran freaks out and for a variety of reasons, carries her out into the water as far as he can and lets her go, never to be seen again. Except for 1000's of footprints on the beach which will eventually washed away. What evidence would be available? IF there was perhaps any blood or bodily fluids present. They would be quickly dispersed into the sea. You don't have to be a career criminal to leave little or no evidence. You just have to be lucky. Like Joran.
AFAIC, I actually hope there was more reason than he gave as to why he may have done what is supposed.
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| K_Meine
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:25 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
Like all anonymous posters, you can say anything you can imagine.
Unfortunately, the general tenor of your posts doesn't support that statement. Do you want to try for phrenology or physiognomy? |
That's not an unlikely remark considering your initial question. Simply because I am educated in an applicable area doesn't mean I know more or pretend to more about this case than anyone else. All I did was answer your question.
Last edited by K_Meine on Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:26 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: |
Who said evidence wasn't important? If it wasn't we might be somewhere.
Sometimes even I am unwilling to accept that this roller coaster of an investigation could have been fairly simple yet many want it to be more juicy and interesting. Because we know what appears to be nothing more now then we knew then. Consider the possibility of what some have thought, and sometimes myself, was a possible scenario:
Natalee dies for some reason (ie. drugs, booze, natural causes, etc)
Joran freaks out and for a variety of reasons, carries her out into the water as far as he can and lets her go, never to be seen again. Except for 1000's of footprints on the beach which will eventually washed away. What evidence would be available? IF there was perhaps any blood or bodily fluids present. They would be quickly dispersed into the sea. You don't have to be a career criminal to leave little or no evidence. You just have to be lucky. Like Joran.
AFAIC, I actually hope there was more reason than he gave as to why he may have done what is supposed. |
Gregor absolutely believes that Joran taking her out far enough and simply letting go is completely impossible yet I know otherwise. I am sure his intent was to simply try to get rid of her and he had very little idea that he would be successful in having the currents work to his advantage and that she would never be found. The sea does very unusual things and there is no way anybody is qualified to say in any absolute manner that this could not have happened. Wind conditions and sea currents are in constant patterns of motion and change.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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| enfant terrible
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:46 pm |
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| Quote: | "Normally when I float a corpse out in the ocean, I rush home and google information on the tides, the weather pattern, and other related data" then once satisfied I'm safe, I then may consider to watch a bit of porn"
"You have to have balls of steel to be fretting about your old pair of running shoes the next day and who didn't or did pick you up instead of a rotting bloated carcass washing up on the shores"
"Hey that's just me"
YMMV  |
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***Deactivated: Pending Review***
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 834
Location: Naughty Stool, Alabama
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:51 pm |
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| enfant terrible wrote: | | Quote: | "Normally when I float a corpse out in the ocean, I rush home and google information on the tides, the weather pattern, and other related data" then once satisfied I'm safe, I then may consider to watch a bit of porn"
"You have to have balls of steel to be fretting about your old pair of running shoes the next day and who didn't or did pick you up instead of a rotting bloated carcass washing up on the shores"
"Hey that's just me"
YMMV |
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Yeah, pretty stupid yet very lucky  
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 9277
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| billybob
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:07 pm |
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| enfant terrible wrote: | | Quote: | "Normally when I float a corpse out in the ocean, I rush home and google information on the tides, the weather pattern, and other related data" then once satisfied I'm safe, I then may consider to watch a bit of porn"
"You have to have balls of steel to be fretting about your old pair of running shoes the next day and who didn't or did pick you up instead of a rotting bloated carcass washing up on the shores"
"Hey that's just me"
YMMV |
Unbelievable
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| all10suspects
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:37 pm |
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The girl died on me and I had to go load down porn movies and finish myself. Why does this always happen to me!
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:54 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
WOW, I have to say that your obsession with Beth is really only affecting you, nobody else, and certainly not Beth herself. You post very matter-of-factly as if what you write is the absolute truth. How you can post with such absolutes as if you are somehow involved in the investigation is a bit bizarre. If anybody questions your theories, because that is all they are, you get offended and tell them to just skip your posts if they don't like them, but you are the one posting in the open.
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I am not "obsessed" with Beth.
She just happens to be the most hypocritical of the entire bunch. She is also the one that leads the pack on the assault on Aruba and its people. And then there are her sctions while on the Island. And then there are the words she used every damn night on Fixed News. It is not an obsession- it is calling out the ring leader in this mess.
How can I post with such absolutes?
Because I listen, I read, I see, and I hear.
Thats how
And I don't see you calling others on it.
Like 'resigned' "he was the last person to be with Natalee"... thats bullcrap. That is not a fact, yet so many repeat it like robots... I don't see you calling them statements like that. So why did you choose me to slam?
I give supporting reasons for my theories, and my FACTS.
And just for the record- I do not get offended when someone disagrees with me. I get offended when I am ATTACKED for my beliefs. If they don't like what I say, thats fine. Disagree- thats fine. But the attacks are ridiculous. (and revealing) I am open to discussion. I am not open to attacks. If you don't want to discuss it, move on. Thats my stance.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:06 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
You say you post this way because we are all afforded the right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty, which everybody here agrees with, yet you continue to state in a very matter of fact way, that the people from MB are involved in a cover up; aren't you guilty of the very same thing you are accusing others of? You have no true knowldege of that.
I will continue to redirect you to every single professional investigator (which you are not) who has carefully studied this case and every single statement, timeline and any evidence they have and every single one of them has come to the same conclusion and that is that Joran and only Joran holds the keys to the truth of this mystery. |
There IS a coverup in Mountain Brook, Alabama.
The only question is WHAT are they covering up?
It may be as small a thing as their bedswapping and drug taking. What it is, we don't know, but we DO know there is something they are hiding. And we know that by their secrecy, their lies, and the FACT that they were/are uncooperative with ALE in providing witness information to ALE.
And when you direct me to those professionals, would you kindly provide the missing pieces of the puzzle to them as well? Until all of those pieces are collected and added to make the entire picture- they won't KNOW either. And those from Mountain Brook, Alabama hold pieces of that puzzle. And without those pieces you will never know the truth of what went down in Aruba.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:19 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: | Natalee was alone with Joran and they were on a beach; no credible and/or neutral witness that can be substantiated and PROVEN has come forward and given a formal, sworn statement to LE saying they saw Natalee alive and breathing after her encounter with Joran.
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That's my point!
Your conclusion is based on the lack of a statement from a witness. Thats backwards. The lack of a statement does not mean there were no witness' to seeing Natalee afterwards. Besides her own mother said Natalee called her afterwards. Why ignore that?
The FACT of the matter is, ALE does not have all witness statements. The ones that are missing from Mountain Brook, Alabama are important. yet no one is even wondering about them. It seems the assumption is that because they don't have those statements, there is nothing to tell. Thats backwards also. If there was nothing to tell, they would not be avoiding making those statements. Even the few that were taken, had to be filtered, and presubmitted to attorneys. No interviews.
That, in and of itself, screams of a coverup.
Common sense folks, common sense.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:32 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: | Paulus gambles with Joran. Teaching the difference between a Full House and Royal Flush isn't what I would typically construe as teaching well.
Who said anything about expectations of being perfect? I'm sorry, but considering your tones and excuse making I am not surprised you are offended. Please don't check-in your personal luggage on this flight.
Answer me this. Has it EVER crossed your mind that evidence COULD HAVE existed at one time or if hypothetically Joran walked her out into the water? Any trace would simply float away. Life isn't always about Black & White. Consider thinking outside the box. |
I see so, any father that gambles with his son defines that father's parenting skills? He is a lawyer, he advised his son after that rude bunch of people tripped their way onto his property, one of which was an attorney, one of which identified themselves as FBI. You don't think the Twittys asked grandpa for advise?
Excuses? Nope. I have not made ANY excuses.
My tone? My tone? My post to you was rather civil.
And of course it has ocurred to me that evidence could have existed. But that is no where near a FACT. It is also possible evidence existed in one of the students rooms and they "cleaned it up". Anything is possible, which is why any conclusion of guilt is absurd, as there is no proof a crime even occurred. Has that ocurred to you?
Consider thinking outside the box?
hah! That is the sole reason that I am attacked constantly. Because I do. And I will continue to.
I refuse to drink the koolaid.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:38 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: |
Beth et al lie because they're in denial and want to paint a pretty picture. Could that be considered deceitful. Sure.
Joran lies because he doesn't want to take responsibility for what he has done. This to is deceitful.
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But you do not KNOW that.
Beth's lies about Natalee situation are obviously not because of a case of denial. Beth's initial behavior points to her knowledge that Natalee ran away. It continued from there. She ramped it up to draw Natalee out. Just like Marcia said.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:02 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: | | MUCH MUCH which is the point trying to be hammered yet keeps missing its mark with some people. |
No it doesn't.
We get that she "happens to think the weight of his deceit is greater than that of Beth's."
some folks just don't agree.
Would that be ok?
After all the conclusion is not based on FACTS.
Are we not allowed our own thoughts, our own beliefs?
Now we are imbeciles because we don't agree with the target you have offered up and tried to "hammer" it into us?
Please note the hypocrisy after your previous post to me.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:10 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: | | I would say my MA in Psychology. |
Whoa...
An "MA in Psychology" does not qualify you to give such a conclusion that you have given without having all of the information.
That degree does not qualify you for anything you have said here to date. Other things may, but that degree does not.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:01 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: | The really important thing is that your theories do not line up with the theories of the investigators.
There are plenty of facts that point to Joran which is why he is the only one who has ever truly been a suspect. Jossy Mansur leaves a bad taste in most mouths, but again, that does not negate the obvious. You can think you know for a fact that Joran could not have taken her body out in the water and let her float away, but you again would be talking in absolutes and you are not qualified to do that in this regard. |
Can we/you define who "the investigators" are, please.
I am pretty sure we/you are discussing people like T.J. Ward and those other freakazoids, but I want to be sure before I comment.
Because if thats whose theories folks are not "lining up with" then I can see why.
As for facts pointing to Joran.... pointing to Joran doing WHAT?
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9471
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| Slickster
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:09 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| WordsofWisdom wrote: |
Can we/you define who "the investigators" are, please.
I am pretty sure we/you are discussing people like T.J. Ward and those other freakazoids, but I want to be sure before I comment.
Because if thats whose theories folks are not "lining up with" then I can see why.
As for facts pointing to Joran.... pointing to Joran doing WHAT? |
Exactly!
What about those Mountain Brook Brats and chaperones that were there.
Small community, they know.
But yet, they all hightailed their asses off the island and left Beth in charge.
Seems the ones that were there, should be the ones who talked?
One would think!!!!!!!
Roll Tide Mountain Brook, Alabama!
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Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 1631
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