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resigned
 Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:14 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
So that validates Beth's words and actions?
In what civilized society? |
I wasn't tit for tat-ing.
Most civil people would dial to get help if "something bad happened" to the person they were with....
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Click your heels together...
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 27213
Location: "Onboard" pathenry's desk
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| K_Meine
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:17 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
It appears you want Joran to tell what you believe to be, or want to be, the truth, not what the truth actually is. |
On the contrary. I'm not creating my own version of the events as I sit fit. I am simply reusing Joran's very own words. How else would I get his truth if not from himself. In essence I'm using his own words against him.
IMO he has given more reasons to doubt his truth than to trust it. The fact is all people lie and they have reasons for doing so. The issue isn't the act of lying it is the REPEATED act of lying. The HI story, then Deepak picked him up, then it was Satish and so on and so on. This is called a pattern of deception. All used to pass time until it was certain that Natalee wouldn't be showing back up again. At which point he or they could say LITERALLY anything they wanted without fear of prosecution. Please just take a few minutes and ponder how much time they were afforded to "get things in order". Hell for all we know she was "disappeared" even before anyone knew she was missing.
Why is it necessary for Joran to lie if he is as innocent. Get a believable story, stick with it and pipe. I still think something obvious is missing. 
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Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 1592
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| dugo
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:24 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: | | Why is it necessary for Joran to lie if he is as innocent. Get a believable story, stick with it and pipe. I still think something obvious is missing. |
Even if he is not guilty of a crime doesn't mean he was innocent. If someone feels very guilty aout something doesn't have to mean he comitted a crime, that's why signs of a guilty consciousness alone is not enough for a guilty verdict in jury instructions.
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 5971
Location: L4L
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| Mallory
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:20 pm |
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I don't think we will ever have to worry about Joran having or showing any signs of a guilty conscience. He'd have to stop smirking first.
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1793
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:38 pm |
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| Mallory wrote: | | I don't think we will ever have to worry about Joran having or showing any signs of a guilty conscience. He'd have to stop smirking first. |
No he would have to be GUILTY first.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:49 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: | | If this situation involved my son, I would have sat him down and told him he must tell the truth and show the integrity we both agree is so important in personal makeup. Additionally, I would express my unwavering love and support of him as he traveled the road ahead. |
You have assumed that Joran's parents did not do this.
You also assume that they didn't "teach him well".
I am personally offended by your blaming the parents for a child that may not be perfect.
AND you totally miss my point.
ANd that is a very simple point.
There is no evidence that a crime was committed.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:51 pm |
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| Mallory wrote: | Beth did not tell the HI manager the BEDB story as that was not fabricated until much later by one of those Aruban taxi drivers.
She described Joran van der Sloot to the HI manager as relayed to her by those who saw Natalee in his company last. |
WRONG.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:53 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: | Excellent post!!!!
But as for this quote, "Just because that (rude) group of folks THOUGHT he did something to Natalee," I'm not so sure anyone actually thought he did anything to Natalee. |
Ya know Gregor... you are absolutely right.
In reality they knew that she was hiding out and Joran knew where she was. Good catch!
Last edited by WordsofWisdom on Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:57 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: | | Why is it necessary for Joran to lie if he is as innocent. Get a believable story, stick with it and pipe. I still think something obvious is missing. |
Again the hypocrisy... Why is it necessary for Beth, Jug, Marcia, chaperons, students, on and on and on.... to lie?
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| Mallory
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:29 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| WordsofWisdom wrote: |
Again the hypocrisy... Why is it necessary for Beth, Jug, Marcia, chaperons, students, on and on and on.... to lie? |
None of them have done so.
More to the point, why is it necessary to pretend they did and accuse them of doing so.
People who are lying don't usually the FBI and go on international media daily. They do things like say no body, no case and Joran, say nothing! And you don't have jurisdiction.
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1793
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:47 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Mallory wrote: | None of them have done so.
More to the point, why is it necessary to pretend they did and accuse them of doing so.
People who are lying don't usually the FBI and go on international media daily. They do things like say no body, no case and Joran, say nothing! And you don't have jurisdiction. |
Ahhhh the talking points....
YES THEY HAVE ALL LIED.
Shall we take Marcia first?
Or maybe Jug?
Beth?
FEB?
Alana?
Where shall we start with collecting those lies for you?
Maybe normal folks don't normally lie to the FBI.
But that means squat.
Because some people, normal or not- DO.
Some even lie to and for the FBI.
And some FBI lie as well.
So nothing is above questioning in this case, because there is a lot of hinky stuff regarding that.
The "you don't have jurisdiction" came from Mountain Brook Alabama's own FBI TO ALE.
And Mountain Brook Alabama relied heavily on that to obstruct justice.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:50 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| Mallory wrote: | | None of them have done so. |
I needed to quote that all by itself.
I'll take ONE.
Are you saying that Beth never lied?
Are you serious!!!!???????
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| Gregor
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:58 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| K_Meine wrote: |
<snip>
Hell for all we know she was "disappeared" even before anyone knew she was missing.
Why is it necessary for Joran to lie if he is as innocent. Get a believable story, stick with it and pipe. I still think something obvious is missing. :curse: |
Hell, for all we know, Natalee "disappeared" herself.
Why is it necessary for Beth to lie? She's told more lies than Joran has, and she's lied about more things than Joran has.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Mallory
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:45 pm |
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Not according to ALE, OM and Joran van der Sloot. According to them, Joran did it.
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
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| Mallory
Posted:
Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:50 pm |
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Re: Tangent time
| WordsofWisdom wrote: |
I needed to quote that all by itself.
I'll take ONE.
Are you saying that Beth never lied?
Are you serious!!!!??????? |
I have no way of knowing every word Beth ever spoke just as you have no way of knowing where she was getting her information. I don't call it a lie to repeat what officials and others in Aruba were telling her. She did not have the means to verify their statements. Other times I think she stated her opinion and her own conclusions. That's not what I would consider lying.
I am not aware of her making factual statements that were inaccurate. If you are playing that broken record about whether or not Natalee drank alcoholic beverages yet again, what's the difference in Beth saying she didn't drink and Anita saying Joran didn't? Aren't you equally concerned about the lies of Anita?
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:18 am |
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| Mallory wrote: | | Not according to ALE, OM and Joran van der Sloot. According to them, Joran did it. |
Did WHAT?
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| WordsofWisdom
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:29 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Mallory wrote: | I have no way of knowing every word Beth ever spoke just as you have no way of knowing where she was getting her information. I don't call it a lie to repeat what officials and others in Aruba were telling her. She did not have the means to verify their statements. Other times I think she stated her opinion and her own conclusions. That's not what I would consider lying.
I am not aware of her making factual statements that were inaccurate. If you are playing that broken record about whether or not Natalee drank alcoholic beverages yet again, what's the difference in Beth saying she didn't drink and Anita saying Joran didn't? Aren't you equally concerned about the lies of Anita? |
Broken record?
You can not be serious.
You, who continually repeat the talking points?
Yes, Beth lied.
Read her book.
Then compare them against what she previously said.
She has plenty of time to research everything, yet she continues to LIE.
One of the biggest lies she told was that she had statements that Joran made to ALE that he "sexually assaulted" Natalee. She LIED.
There are so many lies. so many.....
And again, if she was given false information that she used to harm others, she would have stated that, would she not? She would have apologized to those that her statements harmed, would she not? Well she hasn't. She LIED. She knowingly LIED. And those lies stand today.
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Athena
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 9177
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:08 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| WordsofWisdom wrote: | | Mallory wrote: | I have no way of knowing every word Beth ever spoke just as you have no way of knowing where she was getting her information. I don't call it a lie to repeat what officials and others in Aruba were telling her. She did not have the means to verify their statements. Other times I think she stated her opinion and her own conclusions. That's not what I would consider lying.
I am not aware of her making factual statements that were inaccurate. If you are playing that broken record about whether or not Natalee drank alcoholic beverages yet again, what's the difference in Beth saying she didn't drink and Anita saying Joran didn't? Aren't you equally concerned about the lies of Anita? |
Broken record?
You can not be serious.
You, who continually repeat the talking points?
Yes, Beth lied.
Read her book.
Then compare them against what she previously said.
She has plenty of time to research everything, yet she continues to LIE.
One of the biggest lies she told was that she had statements that Joran made to ALE that he "sexually assaulted" Natalee. She LIED.
There are so many lies. so many.....
And again, if she was given false information that she used to harm others, she would have stated that, would she not? She would have apologized to those that her statements harmed, would she not? Well she hasn't. She LIED. She knowingly LIED. And those lies stand today. |
WOW, I have to say that your obsession with Beth is really only affecting you, nobody else, and certainly not Beth herself. You post very matter-of-factly as if what you write is the absolute truth. How you can post with such absolutes as if you are somehow involved in the investigation is a bit bizarre. If anybody questions your theories, because that is all they are, you get offended and tell them to just skip your posts if they don't like them, but you are the one posting in the open.
You say you post this way because we are all afforded the right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty, which everybody here agrees with, yet you continue to state in a very matter of fact way, that the people from MB are involved in a cover up; aren't you guilty of the very same thing you are accusing others of? You have no true knowldege of that. I will continue to redirect you to every single professional investigator (which you are not) who has carefully studied this case and every single statement, timeline and any evidence they have and every single one of them has come to the same conclusion and that is that Joran and only Joran holds the keys to the truth of this mystery.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8847
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| henk
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:16 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
I will continue to redirect you to every single professional investigator (which you are not) who has carefully studied this case and every single statement, timeline and any evidence they have and every single one of them has come to the same conclusion and that is that Joran and only Joran holds the keys to the truth of this mystery. |
And that's just my problem with this case.. Every professional investigator came with just a conclusion.. But how hard they tried, there was never any evidence that Joran was indeed the last person with Natalee.. They found nothing.. I'm talking evidence.. Not Joran said so..
I know Joran lied allot as well as you know Beth did.. I won't go there.
Perhaps Joran does know more, perhaps not.. I wasn't there, so I NEED prove and hard evidence before I come to any conclusion..
And not from Jossy Mansur because I don't trust him..  I think he is buying witnesses.. JMO
Last edited by henk on Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 698
Location: nederland
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| cajun_mali
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:18 am |
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Re: Tangent time
Well, the problem is that so many of Beth's inconsistencies keep getting fed back to us as truth and evidence.
What do you know about Joe T's investigators' findings?
All ANY investigator can say is we don't know what happened after Natalee left with j2k, not even Rolls. They seem to be able to tell a FEW things that didn't happen.
| Need2Know wrote: |
WOW, I have to say that your obsession with Beth is really only affecting you, nobody else, and certainly not Beth herself. You post very matter-of-factly as if what you write is the absolute truth. How you can post with such absolutes as if you are somehow involved in the investigation is a bit bizarre. If anybody questions your theories, because that is all they are, you get offended and tell them to just skip your posts if they don't like them, but you are the one posting in the open.
You say you post this way because we are all afforded the right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty, which everybody here agrees with, yet you continue to state in a very matter of fact way, that the people from MB are involved in a cover up; aren't you guilty of the very same thing you are accusing others of? You have no true knowldege of that. I will continue to redirect you to every single professional investigator (which you are not) who has carefully studied this case and every single statement, timeline and any evidence they have and every single one of them has come to the same conclusion and that is that Joran and only Joran holds the keys to the truth of this mystery. |
Last edited by cajun_mali on Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:32 am; edited 3 times in total
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Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 690
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| AC
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:20 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
WOW, I have to say that your obsession with Beth is really only affecting you, nobody else, and certainly not Beth herself. You post very matter-of-factly as if what you write is the absolute truth. How you can post with such absolutes as if you are somehow involved in the investigation is a bit bizarre. If anybody questions your theories, because that is all they are, you get offended and tell them to just skip your posts if they don't like them, but you are the one posting in the open.
You say you post this way because we are all afforded the right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty, which everybody here agrees with, yet you continue to state in a very matter of fact way, that the people from MB are involved in a cover up; aren't you guilty of the very same thing you are accusing others of? You have no true knowldege of that. I will continue to redirect you to every single professional investigator (which you are not) who has carefully studied this case and every single statement, timeline and any evidence they have and every single one of them has come to the same conclusion and that is that Joran and only Joran holds the keys to the truth of this mystery. |
Great post, N2K! That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Gregor
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:51 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Need2Know wrote: |
<snip>
I will continue to redirect you to every single professional investigator (which you are not) who has carefully studied this case and every single statement, timeline and any evidence they have and every single one of them has come to the same conclusion and that is that Joran and only Joran holds the keys to the truth of this mystery. |
No one, not any professional investigator, not any non-professional, or even any psychic has put forth a credible theory of how Joran, acting alone, could have disposed of a body, and eliminated every scintilla of evidence.
So whether or not Joran was involved, he cannot be the only person who has knowledge of what actually happened.
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| Need2Know
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:53 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| Gregor wrote: |
No one, not any professional investigator, not any non-professional, or even any psychic has put forth a credible theory of how Joran, acting alone, could have disposed of a body, and eliminated every scintilla of evidence.
So whether or not Joran was involved, he cannot be the only person who has knowledge of what actually happened. |
Your bolded portion above is also an absolute and not necessarily true. Have you ever been involved in criminal investigations? Your statement above would lead one to believe that there would be mounds upon mounds of "evidence" when that is not the case.
Natalee was alone with Joran and they were on a beach; no credible and/or neutral witness that can be substantiated and PROVEN has come forward and given a formal, sworn statement to LE saying they saw Natalee alive and breathing after her encounter with Joran.
Could Joran have placed Natalee in the water by some means, gotten back to shore and gotten home leaving no evidence? Of course he could, there is no doubt about that. Could it have happened some other way without leaving any forensic or other material evidence? Of course it could have, happens often.
Natalee has vanished and the simple truth of this, over three years into it, is that Joran and only Joran is the most likely person who knows and/or was also involved in making her vanish. No other theory, however you want to theorize it, leaves any of us with more reasonable suspicion than this.
No, he cannot be prosecuted for what we know or have, that is a given, and he probably never will, that still does not give a person the right to tell another person that Joran CANNOT be the one because no evidence exists; that theory only works when a defendant has already been charged and is sitting in the defendan't chair before a judge or jury, not on here where the rational minds can look at what is known and come up with the most reasonable explanation, like it or not from those who simply will not accept Joran's involvement in this.
This has been discussed in every way, shape and form on here and elsewhere, and you will see that many of the people here have come to the same conclusion that I have come to and they are no longer basing it on consipiracies or unproven and supposed facts from statements given in the beginning of the case or from characterizations of supposed actions based solely and merely on speculation of perceived behavior, actions or words.
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N2K
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 8847
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| K_Meine
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:21 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| WordsofWisdom wrote: |
You have assumed that Joran's parents did not do this.
You are correct. I do, however, wonder what the contents of their conversations were in the days following Natalee's disappearance. Telling your child "no body, no case" isn't quite in line with Son, you really need to tell the truth and I'll support you regardless of what you've done.
You also assume that they didn't "teach him well".
Paulus gambles with Joran. Teaching the difference between a Full House and Royal Flush isn't what I would typically construe as teaching well.
I am personally offended by your blaming the parents for a child that may not be perfect.
Who said anything about expectations of being perfect? I'm sorry, but considering your tones and excuse making I am not surprised you are offended. Please don't check-in your personal luggage on this flight.
AND you totally miss my point.
ANd that is a very simple point.
There is no evidence that a crime was committed.
Answer me this. Has it EVER crossed your mind that evidence COULD HAVE existed at one time or if hypothetically Joran walked her out into the water? Any trace would simply float away. Life isn't always about Black & White. Consider thinking outside the box. |
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Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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| K_Meine
Posted:
Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:28 am |
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Re: Tangent time
| WordsofWisdom wrote: |
Again the hypocrisy... Why is it necessary for Beth, Jug, Marcia, chaperons, students, on and on and on.... to lie? |
Wow,
You know as well as I do people lie for a reason and they are not always for the same reason. BOTH "sides" lie. No more hypocrisy. Happy!! 
Beth et al lie because they're in denial and want to paint a pretty picture. Could that be considered deceitful. Sure.
Joran lies because he doesn't want to take responsibility for what he has done. This to is deceitful.
I just happen to think the weight of his deceit is greater than that of Beth's.
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