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yankee-in-france
 Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:15 am |
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More Executions in Baghdad
What is it with these executioners over there? The news this morning is that the Iraqis have executed Saddam's half brother and the former chief justice of the Iraqi supreme court, and that apparently the half-brother's head was severed from his body during the hanging process. They claim it is a rarity but that decapitation can happen. Yeah, right!
These executions are barbaric and the people who carry them out aren't much better than the guys they're murdering.
YIF
For BBC article, go to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/6261965.stm
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6605
Location: France
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| blenchi
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:41 am |
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Re: More Executions in Baghdad
| yankee-in-france wrote: | What is it with these executioners over there? The news this morning is that the Iraqis have executed Saddam's half brother and the former chief justice of the Iraqi supreme court, and that apparently the half-brother's head was severed from his body during the hanging process. They claim it is a rarity but that decapitation can happen. Yeah, right!
These executions are barbaric and the people who carry them out aren't much better than the guys they're murdering.
YIF
For BBC article, go to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/6261965.stm |
And Irak wants to be a civilized democratic country? I have this gut feeling that it is revenge. Irak starts all over again with another puppit.
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Shakin' my moneymaker!
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:15 am |
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Revenge, oh, yes, I am sure they wanted very much and I can understand that. I cannot, however, accept the manner in which these executions have been carried out and it is hard for me to believe that the US cannot ask that they be carried out without the barbarism.
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6605
Location: France
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:23 am |
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While I don't condone purposely mutilating a body these guys weren't exactly innocent lambs sent to slaughter.
To equate the executioners with these rogues is a great injustice. What does anyone think execution is for other than to exact revenge.
If you play with fire then expect to get burned.
edited to add the following -
BTW, YIF, I see you're now a RU staff member. Don't know when that happened but congratulations.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:36 am |
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Thanks, Dithers, for the congrats --
I agree with you that Saddam and his compadres were brutal and committed mass murder. No doubt about it. The world did not lose worthwhile citizens, but I do not believe in the death penalty for anyone. It is my personal belief that it is wrong to take any life -- even the likes of Saddam & Co, but I do understand that not everyone shares that belief and especially for these types of individuals.
There was no need, however, to make Saddam a martyr which is what was accomplished with the uncivilized manner in which his execution was carried out by the Iraqis i.e., the 'drop down' method rather than just hanging, the taunting, the taping and recording of the execution itself, the general lack of anything remotely civil. Yes, that troubles me.
And the latest -- the decapitation of the half-brother. How uncivilized must we be before revenge is satisfied?
YIF
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6605
Location: France
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| justamom
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:43 am |
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These types of executions have been going n for some time in Iraq long before we ever went to make them "civilized". In any case I think that these guys, and saddam got alot more "justice" then those they killed themselves. I dont feel at all sorry for them, other then Im sure when they met their maker they didnt get what they expected.
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justaMILF
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Location: in a cute farmhouse
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| blenchi
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:50 am |
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| justamom wrote: | | These types of executions have been going n for some time in Iraq long before we ever went to make them "civilized". In any case I think that these guys, and saddam got alot more "justice" then those they killed themselves. I dont feel at all sorry for them, other then Im sure when they met their maker they didnt get what they expected. |
Let me see I suppose everyone on here at RU is a Christian or has another believe and knows his/her bible. Where in the bible does it say that you are entitled to bring someone to death if that persopn commited a crime?
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Shakin' my moneymaker!
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
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| blenchi
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:11 pm |
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| Quote: | | YIF:apparently the half-brother's head was severed from his body during the hanging process. They claim it is a rarity but that decapitation can happen. Yeah, right! |
YIF probabely the robe was too long!
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Shakin' my moneymaker!
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:20 pm |
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All I know is I keep hearing people say we can't expect some of these other countries to act, feel, or do as we do. So why is it any different when it comes to the way they mete out punishment? Why should we expect them to do as we do?
To tell you the truth, if it was me, I'd rather go through the end Saddam and his henchmen are enduring rather than live in near solitary confinement in a 6' x 9' cell with almost zero window or view of the sky ala Scott Peterson and others we keep in prison in this country.
I recently saw an article during hurricane season that they weren't worried about the prisoners in Gitmo because they'd been moved to new quarters where they weren't out in the elements. So the bleeding hearts got them moved from their quarters with a view of the sun and the sky and they are now confined in windowless cells. Thanks for nothing I would say.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:40 pm |
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I agree, Dithers, death was not enough punishment.
My hubby had a unique theory throughout the trial. He believed that the defense attorneys should have plead him guilty by reason of insanity and that he could have been proven insane.
His theory was find him guilty by reason of insanity and it would have quelled the Baathist insurrection as no one wants to follow a man who has been determined to be insane. I must confess that I was not in agreement with him on this but he felt had they done that and put him away as you say in solitary confinement in some guarded 'mental' holding cell, he would have endured far more pain than putting him to death, and perhaps we wouldn't be dealing with as much sectarian violence from the Sunnis.
YIF
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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Location: France
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:25 pm |
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I don't believe all that crappola that this sectarian violence or that sectarian violence is caused by this that or the other. It's simply thugs taking advantage of the news headlines. It's the same the world over. The problem is we always try to assign different ways of thinking or acting to these people. It all boils down to media manipulation.
I'm of the firm belief that if the media hadn't been so anti-West all of this time and had instead acted as if the invasion of Iraq was the greatest thing since sliced bread that the pushback from these insurgents would not have been nearly what it has been.
edited - because it didn't read correctly.
Last edited by dithers on Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Kay_The_Kitten
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:49 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | Thanks, Dithers, for the congrats --
SNIP
And the latest -- the decapitation of the half-brother. How uncivilized must we be before revenge is satisfied?
YIF |
Warning what follows is somewhat gruesome, tender tummys may want to skip it
Actually a technical point that should be made. that the head detached from the Torso may actually indicate they are trying to do it "right"
Historically there are 2 ways to execute a person by Hanging.
The traditional navy way where the condemned was hoisted off the deck of the ship and in effect was strangled by the rope around the neck. This is in effect also the way most suicide cases die. It is a relitivaly slow method of execution where the condemned can take many minutes to strangle depending on the strength of their neck muscles.
The way used in most Civil executions is to break the neck by Hanging which leads to a much faster death. The way this is done is by using a bulky knot on the side of the neck and making sure that the condemned drops a certain distance so the impact fractures the first Cervical vertebra and also displaces it completely severing the spinal cord and usually as well damaging the brain stem. The executioners dilemma is to drop the body enough to snap the neck but not so far that the head will detach. If the drop is not sufficient then the witnesses get to watch the condemned do the "hangman's Dance" (actual term) (Hmmm could we call it a Dance macabre?) as they slowly strangle.
So yes once you are past the idea of capitol Punishment being Barbaric, the fact that the condemned's head did detach shows that the hangman was trying to make it a quick death. It would be all too easy for the hangman to slide the rope around the back a bit and make the rope a bit shorter ......
Edit to add: I did the above post from memory from a course I did many years back. I went to look and at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging
they define 4 types of hanging, however it still comes down to do you strangle him or break his neck. It is interesting to see that humane places like Iran use the strangle method by putting a rope around the persons neck and hoisting them off the ground with a tank barrel....
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Geek
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:55 pm |
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If you're dead - you're dead. And once you're there it doesn't matter what happened when you were still alive. It's over. It's almost comical that people can argue over death-taking being done in a humane manner.
As long as it wasn't drawn out and tortuous (as all of these guys did to hundred of thousands of others) then they were lucky. How humane can taking any kind of life be? People are spending more time worrying about it than it took these guys to die. All in all they got off pretty easily considering what fate they might have met given what they'd done to so many.
I learned long ago that there are too many battles and too many things worth worrying over that are vying for the world's short and hard to catch attention span then to worry over guys such as these. The world's a tough nut.
Just the other day there was that story about the women raped in Africa who have cotton stuffed in their mouths and the cotton set on fire. Or they have knives thrust up into their vaginas after being raped. Those that do acts such as this upon innocent people are the barbarians I find more appalling.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Kay_The_Kitten
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:20 pm |
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Dithers,
In many ways I agree with you, The are fortunate they were not turned over to some their Victims family's complete with an electric drill...
My only point is that those who are accusing the executioner of being barbaric because the head came off are wrong IMO. He was doing a difficult job as well as he could.
Kay
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Geek
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 707
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:23 pm |
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I totally agree that genital mutilation/female circumcision is likewise barbaric, and although it is not practiced in the US or Western Europe, every woman in the world should be taking a stand against it.
The botched executions in Iraq illustrate further the nature of the beasts --so to speak. The manner in which they were conducted does not bode well for the current Iraqi government. IMO, if they can't organize a simple hanging and have it come out a simple hanging without all the extras, they can't do very much at all.
The sectarian violence between the Kurds, the Sunni, and the Shia has been going on for centuries. It is an over-simplification to say it goes on around the world, but this particular sectarian violence between the Kurds, the Sunni, and the Shia is going on in Iraq which is the same country that we invaded to change a regime without apparently any understanding of the background of that country.
There is a civil war in Iraq and the executions carried out by the Iraqi government are barbaric.
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 6605
Location: France
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| Kay_The_Kitten
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:34 pm |
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Were the executions Botched, nope, don't think so all 3 men are dead and died at the end of a rope.
Were they not as pretty or as dignified as our western sensibilities define as "proper" No they were not
Even with the Jerring and singing "ding dong the bastard is dead" or other similar variations it was a lot cleaner and more dignified than most executions in that part of the world.
Bottom line they were sentenced to die at the end of a rope they did, Good riddance
Kay
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Geek
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
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| yankee-in-france
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:38 pm |
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I can't disagree with your bottom line, Kay. 
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YIF
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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Location: France
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| dugo
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:48 pm |
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I followed you and ended up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine
The last public guillotining was of Eugene Weidmann, who was convicted of six murders. He was beheaded on June 17, 1939, outside the prison Saint-Pierre rue Georges Clemenceau 5 at Versailles, which is now the Palais de Justice. The allegedly scandalous behaviour of some of the onlookers on this occasion, and an incorrect assembly of the apparatus, as well as the fact it was secretly filmed, caused the authorities to decide that executions in the future were to take place in the prison courtyard. Jules-Henri Desfourneaux, the presiding "number one" executioner at this time was variously reported as slow, possibly drunk and indecisive, certainly a far cry from his well regarded immediate predecessor Anatole Deibler. He was also prone to arguing with his cousin and "number two" Andre Obrecht which led to the latters' resignation on two separate occasions, the last involving a fist-fight between the pair after an execution.
L'histoire se répète, non!?
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| Kay_The_Kitten
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:01 pm |
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Malheureusement oui, ont apprenne jamais les leçons de nos pères
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Geek
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 707
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:04 pm |
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| Kay_The_Kitten wrote: |
Were the executions Botched, nope, don't think so all 3 men are dead and died at the end of a rope.
Were they not as pretty or as dignified as our western sensibilities define as "proper" No they were not
Even with the Jerring and singing "ding dong the bastard is dead" or other similar variations it was a lot cleaner and more dignified than most executions in that part of the world.
Bottom line they were sentenced to die at the end of a rope they did, Good riddance
Kay |
Amen. You hit the nail on square on the head. Especially the first sentence. I was already thinking that same exact thing even before I saw your reply.
I've watched some videos of stonings and beheadings that have taken place in that part of the world and I'd opt for the treatment Saddam and pals got any day of the week.
On the one hand we hear these people aren't ready for or can't handle democracy or a civilized way of life and we shouldn't shove it down their throats but then on the other hand we should expect that they should be accorded all of the niceties that come with a democratized and civilized world.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| apodixis
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:09 pm |
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| Kay_The_Kitten wrote: | | Malheureusement oui, ont apprenne jamais les leçons de nos pères |
Or in English, as the Philosopher George Santayana said, “those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.
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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3233
Location: State of Jefferson, Ecotopia
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:21 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | I totally agree that genital mutilation/female circumcision is likewise barbaric, and although it is not practiced in the US or Western Europe, every woman in the world should be taking a stand against it.
The botched executions in Iraq illustrate further the nature of the beasts --so to speak. The manner in which they were conducted does not bode well for the current Iraqi government. IMO, if they can't organize a simple hanging and have it come out a simple hanging without all the extras, they can't do very much at all.
The sectarian violence between the Kurds, the Sunni, and the Shia has been going on for centuries. It is an over-simplification to say it goes on around the world, but this particular sectarian violence between the Kurds, the Sunni, and the Shia is going on in Iraq which is the same country that we invaded to change a regime without apparently any understanding of the background of that country.
There is a civil war in Iraq and the executions carried out by the Iraqi government are barbaric. |
If we have no understanding of the background of Iraq then how do we know the executions were barbaric to their way of thinking. In that part of the world, I'd say they were anything but that.
What exactly was botched about the hanging? The head coming off? How do we know how often that happens. There are many things we see and learn in today's instant message world that we didn't know in the past - doesn't mean they didn't happen and maybe even with regularity.
I sure don't see how you can make the leap from a possible messy hanging to the Iraqi's being incapable of running a country. Whoa! If one was to make that leap of judgement about any of our minority populations being totally incapable based on one or two failures or the failures of a few then all Holy Hell would break loose. I'm always flabbergasted at the blanket statements that are made regarding what those in other parts of the world can or can't be expected to achieve or what should or should not be expected of them.
Noblesse Oblige.
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Pretty in Blonde
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 3468
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| dugo
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:26 pm |
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| yankee-in-france wrote: | | I totally agree that genital mutilation/female circumcision is likewise barbaric, and although it is not practiced in the US or Western Europe, every woman in the world should be taking a stand against it. |
topic drift warning...
Against outright mutilation yes, against rituals, no. I think there needs to be room for some symbolic type of circumcisions. There must be nondestructive ways to carve membership of a tradition in a vagina just like it can be done with a penis.
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| dugo
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:31 pm |
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| dithers wrote: | | The botched executions |
[snip]
Well, as long as they are dead nothing is botched here...
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Dashing Dutch Dynamo Dude
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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| dithers
Posted:
Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:33 pm |
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| dugo wrote: | | yankee-in-france wrote: | | I totally agree that genital mutilation/female circumcision is likewise barbaric, and although it is not practiced in the US or Western Europe, every woman in the world should be taking a stand against it. |
topic drift warning...
Against outright mutilation yes, against rituals, no. I think there needs to be room for some symbolic type of circumcisions. There must be nondestructive ways to carve membership of a tradition in a vagina just like it can be done with a penis. |
Without drifting any further let me just say when I brought the topic up I was not talking about genital mutilation. I was talking about outright murder of women who had been raped. ie. stuffing the mouth with cotton and setting the cotton on fire or repeatedly jabbing a large butcher knife up a woman's vagina - not too many people will survive these things. It is not a ritual, it is cold blooded murder.
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Pretty in Blonde
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