| Drownings in Aruba? - |
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JackC
 Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:49 pm |
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Drownings in Aruba?
For the Aruban posters. Can you tell me if you ever heard of swimmers or divers drowning and never washing up.
At Scrux we're debating whether someone who either swam into the ocean and drowned or was tossed in the water would wash up.
Several posters are questioning what has become somewhat of a common wisdom, i.e. that someone drowning would either wash up on the coast of Aruba or, if the body went far enough out on open sea, on the coast of Venezuela. (This is how it was portrayed in the reconstruction by 'Opsporing Verzocht'.)
Now I'm not asking for any ideas of posters, I'm asking for reported facts about drowned who never washed up, preferably reportings with links attached.
Plus: some are probing if sharks or other scavengers could have made the body disappear. Again, just the facts please. Thinking, we can do for ourselves. If anybody wants to speculate on the matter, please do me a favour and start your own thread.
Thanks for the info.
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| Fiery
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:51 pm |
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Re: Drownings in Aruba?
| JackC wrote: | For the Aruban posters. Can you tell me if you ever heard of swimmers or divers drowning and never washing up.
At Scrux we're debating whether someone who either swam into the ocean and drowned or was tossed in the water would wash up.
Several posters are questioning what has become somewhat of a common wisdom, i.e. that someone drowning would either wash up on the coast of Aruba or, if the body went far enough out on open sea, on the coast of Venezuela. (This is how it was portrayed in the reconstruction by 'Opsporing Verzocht'.)
Now I'm not asking for any ideas of posters, I'm asking for reported facts about drowned who never washed up, preferably reportings with links attached.
Plus: some are probing if sharks or other scavengers could have made the body disappear. Again, just the facts please. Thinking, we can do for ourselves. If anybody wants to speculate on the matter, please do me a favour and start your own thread.
Thanks for the info. |
jack this is all detailed by harry tho at hyscience. click comments, then click view and then click posts and comments and then do a search...harry was incredibly thorough
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Who died and made YOU Darth Vader?
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| victims cry
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:57 pm |
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Well I know of a number of cases where people have fallen overboard and never wash up. depending on where put in the water and what state the body is in, scavengers can also make a big difference. I.e if i was a killer or paniced with a body, I would ensure that the body was thrown in the sea with some chum and cuts on the body itself. Also would open the stomach to ensure that trapped gases did not allow the body to float back up. (its generally gases that make them rise in a few days).
Then i wouldnt worry about it anymore. The odds of it washing up when thrown a couple of miles out, in aruba is small. If it made it the miles needed to another country it would likely be essentially destroyed. Certainly no forensics left.
But short answer, yes some bodies never appear again. Hell that happens in RIVERS not just open ocean!
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On Vacation!
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| JesseLee
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:28 pm |
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This aspect of the case has always interested me, I look forward to reading what you come up with at scrux, JackC. We have had such conflicting information from Aruba about whether or not a body would wash up or be swept toward Panama. For those of us who think Natalee is in the water, this is a great topic to sort out.
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| fried
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:40 pm |
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also remeber that there were three tropical storms that passed through that area, Emily is listed as 7-3 - 7-6, Dennis as 7-5 - 7-11, and Emily as 7-11 - 7-21, any of them, depending on timing, COULD have affected the movement of anything in the ocean at that time.
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| amicus
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:25 pm |
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This was not what you asked for but I thought it interesting:
U.S. Citizen Deaths from Non-Natural Causes by Foreign Country
ARUBA
Date of Death Place of Death Cause of Death
July 6, 2003 SEROE COLORADO, ARUBA Other Accident
July 12, 2004 ARUBA Drowning
July 12, 2004 ARUBA Drowning
January 26, 2005 ORANJESTAD, ARUBA Other Accident
February 8, 2005 HORACIO ODUBER HOSPITAL, ARUBA Drowning
March 12, 2005 WYNDHAM ARUBA BEACH RESORT, ARUBA Drug Related
http://travel.state.gov/family/family_issues/death/death_594.html
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| skepticynic
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:10 pm |
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| amicus wrote: | This was not what you asked for but I thought it interesting:
U.S. Citizen Deaths from Non-Natural Causes by Foreign Country
ARUBA
Date of Death Place of Death Cause of Death
July 6, 2003 SEROE COLORADO, ARUBA Other Accident
July 12, 2004 ARUBA Drowning
July 12, 2004 ARUBA Drowning
January 26, 2005 ORANJESTAD, ARUBA Other Accident
February 8, 2005 HORACIO ODUBER HOSPITAL, ARUBA Drowning
March 12, 2005 WYNDHAM ARUBA BEACH RESORT, ARUBA Drug Related
http://travel.state.gov/family/family_issues/death/death_594.html |
Wow, drowning and drugs, but NO murders...... 
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| Daniel
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:18 pm |
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Jack, two bits of info:
1) An Aruban poster (maybe Arubagirl?) once explained that there's no noticeable tide on Aruba and that the current of the water is mostly driven by the winds.
2) From http://www.renevannie.com/inhoud/kritisch/_kritisch.html:
"Niets maar dan ook helemaal niets gevonden tot nu toe. Natuurlijk niet. Welke gek begraaft nou iemand op Aruba?!
Terwijl je alleen maar aan de hotelkant 25 meter de zee in hoeft te lopen. Vanaf dat punt drijft een lichaam vanzelf de zee op. Richting Panama. Maar zover komt het niet. Het lichaam is al na een dag verdwenen en opgegeten. Ik begrijp dan ook niets van die onzin om opnieuw in de duinen te gaan zoeken."
and:
"Nu is er een nieuw team uit Miami gekomen en die gaan opnieuw op zoek naar het lichaam van Natalee. Volgens mij is het nutteloos want dat meisje is zo goed als zeker in zee gegooid. Gisteren was ik met een van mijn dochters naar zee gegaan en zijn we op nog geen 10 meter van het strand op onze rug in het water gaan liggen. Een paar minuten later waren we al enkele meters weg gedreven van de kant. Dus laat je een mens op 100 meter uit de kust los dan is die een paar uur later al ver weg en drijft richting Pamama."
and:
"En het domste was nog dat ze bestreden dat Natalee in zee was gepleurd. Nee, want dan moest ze zeker honderd meter van de kust in zee zijn gegooid en zou ze zeker zijn aangespoeld op de kust van Venezuela. Dit verhaal vertelde ze terwijl die teut aan de Noordkust stond. Lulkoek. Ga voor de grote hotels 10 meter van het strand op je rug in zee liggen. Sluit je ogen en blijf 5 minuten dobberen. Open dan je ogen en zal je zien dat je al 100 meter in zee bent afgedreven."
(for non-dutch readers: this Dutch local argues that a body, taken out just a short distance into the sea, will not wash-up to the Aruban shore but drift towards Panama instead.)
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| JackC
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:23 pm |
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Thanks everybody for the help. I'll look at this thread every now and again for new tips, hints and leads.
It seems we may have a revivication of what is now starting to look like an underappreciated theory.
Jack
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| JesseLee
Posted:
Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:25 pm |
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| JackC wrote: | Thanks everybody for the help. I'll look at this thread every now and again for new tips, hints and leads.
It seems we may have a revivication of what is now starting to look like an underappreciated theory.
Jack |
What!? That she's in the water!? Accidentally drowned herself!? What!?
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| victims cry
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:26 am |
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| JackC wrote: | Thanks everybody for the help. I'll look at this thread every now and again for new tips, hints and leads.
It seems we may have a revivication of what is now starting to look like an underappreciated theory.
Jack |
Actually it has always been one of my top two theories.
Either a 3rd party dumping her ...as Nancy Grace said aruba is an island surrounded by water  , or an accident by going out to far past the sandbar.
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| Holmes
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:20 am |
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The problem with most subsets of this "theory" is that you have to get her from the land out to the ocean. How did they do that, leaving no evidence.
Had they killed her already, there would be tons of forensic evidence;
Took her out as part of a plan to kill her? I guess it's possible, but it's implausible and there's no evidence to back it up;
Took her out and she accidentally died? Then why dispose of the body. Not to belabor the point, but there would be no reason to do so. Ameerican toourists have died of ODs or natural causes before;
And you have to get her on a boat somehow. Nobody saw? Nobody heard screams or a motor?
While it can' t be ruled out, that's not the point. There is no evidence to support any of the above, it's all baseless speculation.
Now, an accidental drowning during a little 4:00 AM swim, that's possible, there was an MB girl swimming with a Dutch guy near the HI, Natalee was drunk, and for all we know was despondent.
Without knowing any more details however, it's impossible to know if the body of a drowning victim would have washed up, since it depends on how far out she swam. My reading of the stuff on Hyscience, and my personal experience with late night swims, makes me doubt she would have gone far enough, especially in her condition, for the body to be swept away, but there's no way to be sure.
Last edited by Holmes on Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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| Daniel
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:47 am |
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For all we know, Natalee may just have found an air mattress and thought it would be nice to float around a bit and gaze at the stars, then fell asleep from all the drinks she'd had and drifted off. It could be that simple.
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| Sabrina
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:06 am |
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If she floated on a raft or went swimming by herself, the body would have washed up on the beach.
The only way the body could have disappeared would have been if she was taken far out which means a boat would have had to been used.
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:42 am |
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JackC: I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts over there. I'm not a member but I read. 
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| Glenda
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:43 am |
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| Daniel wrote: | Jack, two bits of info:
1) An Aruban poster (maybe Arubagirl?) once explained that there's no noticeable tide on Aruba and that the current of the water is mostly driven by the winds.
2) From http://www.renevannie.com/inhoud/kritisch/_kritisch.html:
"Niets maar dan ook helemaal niets gevonden tot nu toe. Natuurlijk niet. Welke gek begraaft nou iemand op Aruba?!
Terwijl je alleen maar aan de hotelkant 25 meter de zee in hoeft te lopen. Vanaf dat punt drijft een lichaam vanzelf de zee op. Richting Panama. Maar zover komt het niet. Het lichaam is al na een dag verdwenen en opgegeten. Ik begrijp dan ook niets van die onzin om opnieuw in de duinen te gaan zoeken."
and:
"Nu is er een nieuw team uit Miami gekomen en die gaan opnieuw op zoek naar het lichaam van Natalee. Volgens mij is het nutteloos want dat meisje is zo goed als zeker in zee gegooid. Gisteren was ik met een van mijn dochters naar zee gegaan en zijn we op nog geen 10 meter van het strand op onze rug in het water gaan liggen. Een paar minuten later waren we al enkele meters weg gedreven van de kant. Dus laat je een mens op 100 meter uit de kust los dan is die een paar uur later al ver weg en drijft richting Pamama."
and:
"En het domste was nog dat ze bestreden dat Natalee in zee was gepleurd. Nee, want dan moest ze zeker honderd meter van de kust in zee zijn gegooid en zou ze zeker zijn aangespoeld op de kust van Venezuela. Dit verhaal vertelde ze terwijl die teut aan de Noordkust stond. Lulkoek. Ga voor de grote hotels 10 meter van het strand op je rug in zee liggen. Sluit je ogen en blijf 5 minuten dobberen. Open dan je ogen en zal je zien dat je al 100 meter in zee bent afgedreven."
(for non-dutch readers: this Dutch local argues that a body, taken out just a short distance into the sea, will not wash-up to the Aruban shore but drift towards Panama instead.) |
I agree witht the Dutch local!
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The Good Witch
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| Glenda
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:45 am |
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| Sabrina wrote: | If she floated on a raft or went swimming by herself, the body would have washed up on the beach.
The only way the body could have disappeared would have been if she was taken far out which means a boat would have had to been used. |
Sabrina, you are not correct. We tried it, once past the sand bar, next stop in Panama.
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The Good Witch
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| Sabrina
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:47 am |
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Out of curiousity, how far out is the sand bar and what did you take out there to try?
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| JackC
Posted:
Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:58 am |
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| Bryan Burroughs in Vanity Fair wrote: | | If her body had been buried on Aruba, it probably would have been found by now. If it had been dumped into the surf, it would have ended up back on the beach the following morning. But 200 yards offshore is a sandbar. It's a romantic rendezvous. Couples sometimes go there to make love, and the fishermen watch from their boats. On the other side of that sandbar the current shifts, running west. Anything placed in the water on the far side of the sandbar will drift away from the island, toward Panama. If Natalee was deposited there, her body is gone forever. |
What I don't understand is how the legal authorities then come up with the story of the currents heading for Venezuela.
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