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SavannahStar
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Tue May 20, 2008 3:37 pm |
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| woebedamned wrote: |
I would like to see the pulic reaction if CPS were to go into the "projects" and start telling all those "uneducated mothers" they werent worthy of having their children. There are women who have literally a dozen kids fathered by dozens of men, but because they never said they were "spiratually wed", it is acceptable. And yes, they collect govt $$ for each and every one of them. |
 True dat!
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 21298
Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| wildroses
Posted:
Tue May 20, 2008 3:42 pm |
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| tulsad wrote: | | Betty Boop wrote: |
OK, that's just creepy! How many individuals are there in the entire FDLS following, does anybody know for sure? I mean in all the different compounds they have in different places.
Tulsad, yes I know that the quote was from Miss Nancy, but it seems to be something that is repeated often when discussing the FDLS, the rescuing of these people. Who gets to determine when someone needs rescuing if they don't ask to be rescued? |
I really think that the word "rescue" and similar terms are reflective of the speakers' thinking; either they feel they need to to be rescued or are angry because their lifestyle is different, so government stepped in and used "rescue" as an excuse.
The children are the only cause in this situation. Most people are tolerant or simply don't care about the adults and polygamy.
What has begun to really anger people though, is the FLDS practice of "bleeding the beast" - welfare fraud, etc. This is taught as a virtue.
"The various FLDS prophets justify taking tax money like this by saying that it is really coming from the Lord. Fundamentalists call fleecing the government "bleeding the beast" and regard it as a virtuous act. It’s the Lord’s way of using the system to take care of his chosen people.
Actually, "bleeding the beast" goes back 160 years to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Young was about to be arrested in connection with it in Illinois in 1846, and this forced the LDS to leave Nauvoo early, in midwinter, causing great hardship."
http://www.childbrides.org/taxes_Pres_bleed_beast.html
Now there are the investigations into the UEP fund, where all of the FLDS money was funneled - included that from "bleeding the beast," apparently; and government contracts, including no-bids, that the FLDS has won over the years.
It's extremely interesting. |
If I lived in any state where the sects of FLDS had their compounds, I would be totally upset,also, to find I was actually supporting not only all the children but, ultimately, the heads of FLDS through my taxes.
Interesting side note you had on Brigham Young. I didn't know he left Illinois because of (basically) fraud. I was under the (wrong) impression it was because they "thought" they were being persecuted by locals because of the practice of polygamy.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 6025
Location: Not WildFlowers, Not wildcat
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| Topsider
Posted:
Tue May 20, 2008 7:32 pm |
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| woebedamned wrote: |
I would like to see the pulic reaction if CPS were to go into the "projects" and start telling all those "uneducated mothers" they werent worthy of having their children. There are women who have literally a dozen kids fathered by dozens of men, but because they never said they were "spiratually wed", it is acceptable. And yes, they collect govt $$ for each and every one of them. |
Go visit your local family court and see what cases are there before the court
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Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 2223
Location: On Hiatus Beach
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| Topsider
Posted:
Tue May 20, 2008 7:34 pm |
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| SavannahStar wrote: |
True dat! |
"project" lingo?
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Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 2223
Location: On Hiatus Beach
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| diandra
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 5:03 am |
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| wildroses wrote: | | Interesting side note you had on Brigham Young. I didn't know he left Illinois because of (basically) fraud. I was under the (wrong) impression it was because they "thought" they were being persecuted by locals because of the practice of polygamy. |
that's what they want you to think
and they've been very succesful w/ that
Joseph Smith claimed to have a divine revelation re plural marriage
but in the beginning this revelation/the practice of it
was shared only w/ his inner circle
after complaints from the general membership (the men)
Smith decided that everyone would be allowed to participate
Brigham Young succeeded Joseph Smith/founder and first president
after Smith was murdered by a mob who stormed the jail
the earliest mormons were always on the run,
wherever they landed they were inevitably noted to be:
rustling cattle
stealing food stores and crops
enticing young girls/already-married women as wives
etc
widows w/ money/property were prime targets as well
members were required to turn over their money/property
to the church and then lease it back ...
and there were also complaints from some members
re mis-management of land/crops/funds/businesses
after "difficulties" promoted as "religious persecution" in OH/MO,
Smith/the mormons had taken over the town of Nauvoo IL:
Smith was the mayor and would-be presidential candidate,
the city council/LE/the judges/were mormon
some members fell away when Smith chased their wives,
and these former friends/members started a newspaper
w/ the intention of spreading the truth
re the true motives/activities of Smith's church
the paper's first/only edition openly criticized Smith,
whereupon he proposed/the city council approved
the destruction of the newspaper's printing press
after the printing press was destroyed
there were demands for his/the city council's arrests
but the warrants had to be written outside of Nauvoo
the Nauvoo courts dismissed the warrants ...
Smith declared martial law and called out his private militia
known as the Nauvoo Legion/approx 3,000 men
the IL governor intervened,
proposing a trial in Carthage w/ a non-mormon jury
and he guaranteed the safety of Smith/the council
that's when/where the mob stormed the jail
Brigham Young succeeded Smith
and brought the mormons to the Utah Territory
he also brought the concept of a private militia ...
his was known as the Destroying Angels or Avenging Angels
these would murder husbands/fathers/brothers
who refused Brigham's overtures re their wives/daughters/sisters
we can't understand the FLDS unless we consider their history ...
they practice their religion in its original/pure form
they, along w/ mainstream LDS,
consider themselves the One True Church ...
all others are apostate/abomination
criticism/interference/investigation/charges/trials ...
the depth of their persecution
serves only to reinforce the strength/validity of their faith
we are talking multi/multi-generational belief here
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Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 84
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| wildroses
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 8:07 am |
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| diandra wrote: | | wildroses wrote: | | Interesting side note you had on Brigham Young. I didn't know he left Illinois because of (basically) fraud. I was under the (wrong) impression it was because they "thought" they were being persecuted by locals because of the practice of polygamy. |
that's what they want you to think
and they've been very succesful w/ that
Joseph Smith claimed to have a divine revelation re plural marriage
but in the beginning this revelation/the practice of it
was shared only w/ his inner circle
after complaints from the general membership (the men)
Smith decided that everyone would be allowed to participate
Brigham Young succeeded Joseph Smith/founder and first president
after Smith was murdered by a mob who stormed the jail
the earliest mormons were always on the run,
wherever they landed they were inevitably noted to be:
rustling cattle
stealing food stores and crops
enticing young girls/already-married women as wives
etc
widows w/ money/property were prime targets as well
members were required to turn over their money/property
to the church and then lease it back ...
and there were also complaints from some members
re mis-management of land/crops/funds/businesses
after "difficulties" promoted as "religious persecution" in OH/MO,
Smith/the mormons had taken over the town of Nauvoo IL:
Smith was the mayor and would-be presidential candidate,
the city council/LE/the judges/were mormon
some members fell away when Smith chased their wives,
and these former friends/members started a newspaper
w/ the intention of spreading the truth
re the true motives/activities of Smith's church
the paper's first/only edition openly criticized Smith,
whereupon he proposed/the city council approved
the destruction of the newspaper's printing press
after the printing press was destroyed
there were demands for his/the city council's arrests
but the warrants had to be written outside of Nauvoo
the Nauvoo courts dismissed the warrants ...
Smith declared martial law and called out his private militia
known as the Nauvoo Legion/approx 3,000 men
the IL governor intervened,
proposing a trial in Carthage w/ a non-mormon jury
and he guaranteed the safety of Smith/the council
that's when/where the mob stormed the jail
Brigham Young succeeded Smith
and brought the mormons to the Utah Territory
he also brought the concept of a private militia ...
his was known as the Destroying Angels or Avenging Angels
these would murder husbands/fathers/brothers
who refused Brigham's overtures re their wives/daughters/sisters
we can't understand the FLDS unless we consider their history ...
they practice their religion in its original/pure form
they, along w/ mainstream LDS,
consider themselves the One True Church ...
all others are apostate/abomination
criticism/interference/investigation/charges/trials ...
the depth of their persecution
serves only to reinforce the strength/validity of their faith
we are talking multi/multi-generational belief here |
Thanks 
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 6025
Location: Not WildFlowers, Not wildcat
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| pax
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 2:15 pm |
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| woebedamned wrote: |
I would like to see the pulic reaction if CPS were to go into the "projects" and start telling all those "uneducated mothers" they werent worthy of having their children. There are women who have literally a dozen kids fathered by dozens of men, but because they never said they were "spiratually wed", it is acceptable. And yes, they collect govt $$ for each and every one of them. |
I don't go for the slippery slope argument. In this circumstance the children were in danger and the state of Texas is acting reasonably, imo. One thing I like about our country is the transparency with which these things are conducted. I agree Nancy Grace and Robbie Ludwig are histrionic regardless of their particular opinion.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 16336
Location: Wish You Were Here
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| SavannahStar
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 2:28 pm |
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| pax wrote: |
I don't go for the slippery slope argument. In this circumstance the children were in danger and the state of Texas is acting reasonably, imo. One thing I like about our country is the transparency with which these things are conducted. I agree Nancy Grace and Robbie Ludwig are histrionic regardless of their particular opinion. |
Not so sayeth the court. In Breaking News.
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**SuperStar**
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 21298
Location: Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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| pax
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 2:31 pm |
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| SavannahStar wrote: |
Not so sayeth the court. In Breaking News. |
Yeah, I just saw that!
My bad. 
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 16336
Location: Wish You Were Here
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| tulsad
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 2:52 pm |
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| diandra wrote: | Joseph Smith claimed to have a divine revelation re plural marriage
but in the beginning this revelation/the practice of it
was shared only w/ his inner circle
[snip]
we are talking multi/multi-generational belief here |
Diandra - thank you again for your informative and insightful comments.
As far as your comment yesterday regarding the idea of FLDS having broken away, rather than LDS, being the result of strong LDS PR - talk about a "wow!" moment. It is so true. I also wonder if there isn't an "elephant in the living room" element - people don't understand, nor do they want to deal with, the LDS. It is viewed by many as controlling an entire state and that state is, in some ways, an entity unto itself because of that.
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Sparkly Tree
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 10139
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| atypical
Posted:
Thu May 22, 2008 5:48 pm |
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| diandra wrote: | | wildroses wrote: | | Interesting side note you had on Brigham Young. I didn't know he left Illinois because of (basically) fraud. I was under the (wrong) impression it was because they "thought" they were being persecuted by locals because of the practice of polygamy. |
that's what they want you to think
and they've been very succesful w/ that
Joseph Smith claimed to have a divine revelation re plural marriage
but in the beginning this revelation/the practice of it
was shared only w/ his inner circle
after complaints from the general membership (the men)
Smith decided that everyone would be allowed to participate
Brigham Young succeeded Joseph Smith/founder and first president
after Smith was murdered by a mob who stormed the jail
the earliest mormons were always on the run,
wherever they landed they were inevitably noted to be:
rustling cattle
stealing food stores and crops
enticing young girls/already-married women as wives
etc
widows w/ money/property were prime targets as well
members were required to turn over their money/property
to the church and then lease it back ...
and there were also complaints from some members
re mis-management of land/crops/funds/businesses
after "difficulties" promoted as "religious persecution" in OH/MO,
Smith/the mormons had taken over the town of Nauvoo IL:
Smith was the mayor and would-be presidential candidate,
the city council/LE/the judges/were mormon
some members fell away when Smith chased their wives,
and these former friends/members started a newspaper
w/ the intention of spreading the truth
re the true motives/activities of Smith's church
the paper's first/only edition openly criticized Smith,
whereupon he proposed/the city council approved
the destruction of the newspaper's printing press
after the printing press was destroyed
there were demands for his/the city council's arrests
but the warrants had to be written outside of Nauvoo
the Nauvoo courts dismissed the warrants ...
Smith declared martial law and called out his private militia
known as the Nauvoo Legion/approx 3,000 men
the IL governor intervened,
proposing a trial in Carthage w/ a non-mormon jury
and he guaranteed the safety of Smith/the council
that's when/where the mob stormed the jail
Brigham Young succeeded Smith
and brought the mormons to the Utah Territory
he also brought the concept of a private militia ...
his was known as the Destroying Angels or Avenging Angels
these would murder husbands/fathers/brothers
who refused Brigham's overtures re their wives/daughters/sisters
we can't understand the FLDS unless we consider their history ...
they practice their religion in its original/pure form
they, along w/ mainstream LDS,
consider themselves the One True Church ...
all others are apostate/abomination
criticism/interference/investigation/charges/trials ...
the depth of their persecution
serves only to reinforce the strength/validity of their faith
we are talking multi/multi-generational belief here |
GREAT synopsis diandra. I would say that to understand BOTH the FLDS and LDS you have to understand their history. From everything I've read (a fair amount) there's not a whole lot of difference between the two in their core beliefs aside from polygamy in the here and now. They all use the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price in addition to the Bible. I don't think the stuff about polygamy was ever removed from any of the LDS sacred texts.
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Mountain Brook, AL
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| diandra
Posted:
Fri May 23, 2008 4:03 am |
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| tulsad wrote: |
Diandra - thank you again for your informative and insightful comments.
As far as your comment yesterday regarding the idea of FLDS having broken away, rather than LDS, being the result of strong LDS PR - talk about a "wow!" moment. It is so true. I also wonder if there isn't an "elephant in the living room" element - people don't understand, nor do they want to deal with, the LDS. It is viewed by many as controlling an entire state and that state is, in some ways, an entity unto itself because of that. |
YW 
every high school in UT has an LDS seminary bldg on campus
for those who choose to participate ...
and the pressure w/in families is very strong ...
one class period per day is spent in seminary
it seems unusual for public schools
to be providing time/space for religious instruction on campus
so when these students are "in the world"
they are subtly reminded to remain apart from it
I worked in an office where the gentleman in charge of hiring
would ask young wives/mothers why they wanted a job ...
shouldn't they be at home instead ...
and then he would suggest that they (the interviewer/job applicant)
bow their heads and pray for guidance
I got hired w/o the prayer since I was a grandmother 
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Posts: 84
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