General Discussion

[Hannie]

Is anyone else sick of US television portraying police and prosecutors overseas as bumbling idiots? And Knox family efforts to do the same? Italians desire justice for murder victims.

American tabloid television is out of date. Most aren't as stupid or xenophobic as networks apparently believe. That whole 'angel or demon' characterization -- what a tired cliche.

Absolutely! Somehow they think they have a say in what other countries must do with their own justice system, tough luck. Talking about arrogance at it's top...

[yankee-in-france]

This case will be very interesting. Unfortunately what parents do not always understand is that the innocent young man or innocent young woman is not always as innocent as they believe. I think that there is considerable evidence against her and she was very lucky to keep out the naming of Lumumba as the murderer from this jury and judges although they probably have read about it. I cannot reconcile naming an innocent man as the murderer just because the police were asking questions.

[pax]

Absolutely! Somehow they think they have a say in what other countries must do with their own justice system, tough luck. Talking about arrogance at it's top...

Yes, arrogant and closed-minded. Programs like greta, dateline and nancy grace are regressive. Most have friends from other parts of the world via message boards, skype, text messages, facebook, email, etc. They say 'it's like this where I live' and their friend says 'it's like that where I live'. They laugh that it's not like how trash television portrays either of their places.

[olympic]

very lucky in that the jurors will not hear that piece of evidence, it was indeed a major implication....wonder if the jury selection would be solely from perugia, or elsewhere?

yankee.....i think the major was pinned on guede, amanda and raffaele might get much less.......i read the american fbi clint doubting the evidence & rather positive on behalf of the defendants.

[yankee-in-france]

I just read the article, Olympic, on the Italian justice system that you posted and am impressed with the Italian process. No, this is not a case where they have been jailed for a year without being charged.

I also just read that while one of the statements Amanda gave about Lumumba being the murderer was thrown out because an attorney was not present, there is another statement [apparently when an attorney was present] in the record for which the Italian prosecutors are charging her with criminal slander.

[Hannie]

As far as I know Italy doesn't have a jurysystem..

[yankee-in-france]

As far as I know Italy doesn't have a jurysystem..

Not a jury system like the US but a different form. It is in the article that Olympic posted. I'll find it for you, Hannie.

[yankee-in-france]

Italian justice system similar, but not the same process, as in U.S.
Judges are part of jury; verdict could take months
By ANDREA VOGT
SPECIAL TO THE P-I

PERUGIA, Italy -- A little more than a month from now, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito will stand trial for murder in an Italian courtroom. For Americans following the case, it'll seem a little strange.

The trial is expected to be open to the public -- in stark contrast with the series of closed-door hearings held over the past year just to get to this point.

Under Italian law, Knox and Sollecito could be held in prison for several years during the trial and appeals, if any, but this case is likely to take only months to play out because there's already been an unusual amount of trial preparation, according to legal observers.

Unlike a typical criminal trial in the United States, the Italian version is longer -- often taking months to get to a verdict.

Until two decades ago, the trial process here was similar to that of France, but recent reforms have brought the system closer to what might be expected in an American trial.

There are usually six civilian jurors and two judges, one of whom serves as the "president" of the jury and helps manage the procedural elements of the trial. All of the jurors, including the judges, are chosen randomly.Although it's a sensational case, Knox and Sollecito will probably be tried in Perugia, a central Italian city with a population of about 340,000. A change of venue to another city jurisdiction is seldom granted.

The capital of the region of Umbria, Perugia is known for its high-profile jazz festival each summer, its chocolate fair in the fall and as a magnet for international students. But the influx of foreign students and tourists belies how the real Perugia operates, many say.

"It is a paradoxical city," said veteran Italian journalist Meo Ponte, who is covering the case for the Italian daily La Republica and lived several years in Perugia before transferring to Turin.

"It has the dimension of a small town," he said, "but because of its large student population, it also has the openness of a large, cosmopolitan city."

[Hannie]

Ah thanks Yif!

[olympic]

I just read the article, Olympic, on the Italian justice system that you posted and am impressed with the Italian process. No, this is not a case where they have been jailed for a year without being charged.

I also just read that while one of the statements Amanda gave about Lumumba being the murderer was thrown out because an attorney was not present, there is another statement [apparently when an attorney was present] in the record for which the Italian prosecutors are charging her with criminal slander.

yes, i understood that thanks yankee....imo, guede took the majority of the rap, amanda and raffaele after all is said and done might get a slap on the wrist, after the above charges will be witheled from the jurors/judges.

just wanting to know after you read the dateline transcript, how did you perceive the american fbi clint's view on the case?

[olympic]

Ah thanks Yif!

hannie....watch this video of dateline where the defense attorney explains the italian justice system.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 9#28054799

[yankee-in-france]

I think that Clint views the evidence in this case as strongly supportive of the prosecutor's case.

Olympic, just curious why you feel that Amanda and Rafael may only receive a slap on the wrist. It seems that Amanda did the actual killing or am I missing something.

[yankee-in-france]

I think for me the staging of the broken window to suggest a robbery/murder is very strong evidence that Amanda is involved in the killing.

[Isanah]

I think that Clint views the evidence in this case as strongly supportive of the prosecutor's case.

Olympic, just curious why you feel that Amanda and Rafael may only receive a slap on the wrist. It seems that Amanda did the actual killing or am I missing something.

I don't know much of the finer details of this case, but it seems that the prosecutors have resorted to a lot of assumptions. I would like to know more about the "mixing of" Amanda's and Meridith's blood in the bathroom sink. That was the first I had heard of that on the Dateline show.

I know there are many criminal acts hard to fathom having been done by certain people, but it is difficult to believe that Amanda is evil enough to have willing participated in this murder. Could it have been an sex act that went haywire by Rudy taking it to the point of murder? Of course she would still be culpable, but of what would be the role she may have played?

What has Rudy said to implicate Amanda and her boyfriend, other than him claiming that he was in the bathroom when he heard a scream? Are we to believe that he had consensual sex with Meridith, and then they came into Meridith's bedroom to assault and kill her? I can't get a grip of the tale that the prosecutors have woven in this case. It seems like they are grasping at straws to make these three people all involved with this murder.

The following seems a bit unreal:

Clint Van Zandt: Oh, you have to show a jury a murder weapon. And here, we have the prosecution able to not only say we think this is the weapon, but here's the dna of the victim on it. Here's the dna of somebody who had that knife in their hand. And it's in sollecito's apartment. That's a nice packaged case for the prosecution.

~~~~~~~~~

So we are to believe that Sollecito brought a knife from his apartment, used it to kill Meridith, and then brought it back to his apartment? How convoluted is that? Sollecito must have really cherished that knife in order to bring the murder weapon back to his apartment.

[yankee-in-france]

It wasn't Sollecito's knife. It was a knife found in his apartment that just happened to have the DNA of the murder victim on the tip and the DNA of Amanda on the handle. It is my take that Amanda and Sollecito took the murder weapon from the scene of the crime to his apartment.

[Isanah]

It wasn't Sollecito's knife. It was a knife found in his apartment that just happened to have the DNA of the murder victim on the tip and the DNA of Amanda on the handle. It is my take that Amanda and Sollecito took the murder weapon from the scene of the crime to his apartment.

Oh, that doesn't make sense either. Nothing like washing up the murder weapon and keeping it at your home.

[wvgirl]

Absolutely! Somehow they think they have a say in what other countries must do with their own justice system, tough luck. Talking about arrogance at it's top...

I can't believe you said that Where's the puke bucket when I need it?

[Hannie]

I didn't even noticed that I posted that, oh my gawd!!!

[Tonk]

lol

[wvgirl]

It wasn't Sollecito's knife. It was a knife found in his apartment that just happened to have the DNA of the murder victim on the tip and the DNA of Amanda on the handle. It is my take that Amanda and Sollecito took the murder weapon from the scene of the crime to his apartment.

That's what I understand also. That it came from the girls home, possibly belonging to Amanda, and they cleaned it with bleach and put it in a box. That's nuts. Why keep it around to begin with Also I was reading last night that it was not Meredith's blood on the knife, but actually flesh at the base of the blade, where it connects to the handle. (I've been looking for 30 minutes trying to find that link, but no luck.

[wvgirl]

I didn't even noticed that I posted that, oh my gawd!!!

[olympic]

I think that Clint views the evidence in this case as strongly supportive of the prosecutor's case.

Olympic, just curious why you feel that Amanda and Rafael may only receive a slap on the wrist. It seems that Amanda did the actual killing or am I missing something.

yankee i do feel she had a major role in this tragedy, however, the major details (implicating her boss) will be withheld from the panel....as well as that rudy took the burden of the major participaction..imo

thanks for sharing your view on the clint's perspective.....i need to read that again, i understood him to be sceptical, and a huge burden for the defense to prove their findings.

[olympic]

i noticed one thing.....two different dates reported as the day of the trial....january 16, and january 19.

[olympic]

also the japanese vampire comic book we have been hearing so much about, but we weren't shown any graphics from it....... do any of the pictures in that comic book resemble the crime scene?.... and, if so, how close is the resemblance?

[olympic]

That's what I understand also. That it came from the girls home, possibly belonging to Amanda, and they cleaned it with bleach and put it in a box. That's nuts. Why keep it around to begin with Also I was reading last night that it was not Meredith's blood on the knife, but actually flesh at the base of the blade, where it connects to the handle. (I've been looking for 30 minutes trying to find that link, but no luck.

speculating!
why keep the knife in amanda's home and have them connect the dots.....better bleached and washed off at raffaele's place, they won't think to look at his place....may also been quickly thought of because it truly reflects his participaction as being minimal......no rationale in reality only in their minds, they acted in haste covering their amateurish action best way they could, i don't believe this murder was premeditated.