A renewed direction

[K_Meine]

That's obvious.
But I care.
Your post says there were a number of politicians saying Jan was unprofessional.
That is a false statement.

I've edited my original statement so you can refocus on the point. You're welcome.

ps. The guy who stated this, Rudy Croes, was the Justice Minister of Aruba. What do you suppose is entailed in his job description? The title certainly implies "justice" which obviously Rudy felt hadn't been served well via Jan.

[K_Meine]

Oh, please tell, what is it Jan failed to cough up to the OM that prevented them from drawing up a summons and win a case involving a serious sentence?

"I think the guy rather kills people than fessing up doing something shamefull/stupid/less criminal than killing" doesn't fly in courts.

Don't know where you come from, but here fathers have no obligation whatsoever to rat out their children.

As much as I have agreed with many of your statements in the past as they say "there's a first time for everything". That last statement seems odd particularly coming from you. First off you're inferring that Dutch fathers are more likely to want to protect their sons or not "rat out their children" as you put it than other nationalities. That's bollocks.

IMO what Joran did was wrong and Paulus and Jan continued his enabling by allowing him to evade the responsibility of his actions. If not allowing Joran to learn from his actions is "ratting him out" then we can agree to have different visions on the matter.

I get the fact that Jan wanted to help his buddy Paulus out but orchestrating this level of deception is unconscionable. IMO if the Justice Minister saw smoke there was probably fire. Nobody to this day has challenged Jan on this because they are scared of him. At least Rudy finally had the plums to stand up and say something albeit three years to late.

[Flippy]

Don't know where you come from, but here fathers have no obligation whatsoever to rat out their children.

As a parent, I agree with this to the extent of protecting my children from unfair or unnecessarily harsh punishment; but in doing so I take on the responsibility of taking care of the matter privately; getting my son counseling and assigning private consequences that would be more effective.

When it comes to older children, like Joran was at the time, private consequences become more difficult and you need to let your kids stand on their own. For now, I can punish my 9 year old effectively but my 16 year old is already almost impossible to effectively punish for anything "big"....I can't really force him to do anything unless he agrees to it on some level.


If I shirk the responsibility of taking care of the matter privately, than I am no better than my son's "friend", who does not have that responsibility.

[yankee-in-france]

Last quote does not exists!

I didn't read Dugo's statement to mean that Dutch parents are better than parents in other countries. I thought that he was merely stating what the law is in Holland and Aruba.

What is all this about plums and bullocks ....

[Knipoog]

I've edited my original statement so you can refocus on the point. You're welcome.

ps. The guy who stated this, Rudy Croes, was the Justice Minister of Aruba. What do you suppose is entailed in his job description? The title certainly implies "justice" which obviously Rudy felt hadn't been served well via Jan.

I don't need to refocus on the point. There is no point in this.

Feelings. Nothing more than feelings.


ps.: Thx for editing your statement. If you accuse people of wrong doing,
you better get the facts right.

[iquitos]

I've edited my original statement so you can refocus on the point. You're welcome.

ps. The guy who stated this, Rudy Croes, was the Justice Minister of Aruba. What do you suppose is entailed in his job description? The title certainly implies "justice" which obviously Rudy felt hadn't been served well via Jan.

I thought Rudi's "investigation" came to naught. Jan has a good job with the GOA now. I think Rudi was doing some political showboating and watches too much Geraldo.

[K_Meine]

I don't need to refocus on the point. There is no point in this.

Feelings. Nothing more than feelings.


ps.: Thx for editing your statement. If you accuse people of wrong doing,
you better get the facts right.

The point is Jan's knowledge of this case is suspicious at best. Certainly enough for the JUSTICE MINISTER to think so. Were you ever curious what Jan meant when he said "This is murder, I've seen the evidence and you haven't?"

Some quotes to ponder:

GRACE: Are you convinced that she ever made it to her hotel, Commissioner?

DERSTRATEN: Yes, that`s part of the investigation. I hope you can understand that, because the impact on the island is very great, big for us, because, yes, you know, we are a happy island, but we are a safety island. And we have a low crime rate. So everyone is in force now to look and to search for the girl.

Natalee's disappearance bad for Joran, Paulus, Jan and Aruba's future. Let's make it go away. Voila.

GRACE: Commissioner, are you convinced in your heart and in your mind that this girl made it back to her hotel that night?

DERSTRATEN: Yes, but that`s the point. That`s under investigation now. And on the first day, you hope that you can find the girl together with other girls and other boys on the beach or somewhere else. The second day, you hope that again. And after three or four days, you are thinking about other things. And the investigation is...

Thinking about where you can park your Keystone Cop car? What page is "Hoping and Praying" on in the manual of investigative procedures? If it wasn't so believable it would be unbelievable. I'm not certain you would feel comfortable if Jan and his crew were running the show if your daughter was missing. I wouldn't. Something has always stunk about this case and even Rudy thinks Jan is part of it. Unless, of course, you can explain that one away as well.

[CherokeeKid]

Rep: You still hope for a positive outcome?
Jan: You always have to be hopeful, but I don’t believe anymore that we will find Natalee alive.
Rep: Why not?
Jan: Because I know the investigation and you don't !

Being not alive anymore and being killed are two very different things!

[K_Meine]

I thought Rudi's "investigation" came to naught. Jan has a good job with the GOA now. I think Rudi was doing some political showboating and watches too much Geraldo.

It's surprising when an entity is asked to investigate themselves how rarely anything is found. Jan you been acting suspiciously now go and have a good look at yourself and let us know where you messed things up. All clear, Sir. OK fine.

Sure everyone has moved on except Natalee. That just doesn't seem right.

[K_Meine]

Rep: You still hope for a positive outcome?
Jan: You always have to be hopeful, but I don’t believe anymore that we will find Natalee alive.
Rep: Why not?
Jan: Because I know the investigation and you don't !

Being not alive anymore and being killed are two very different things!

True, but dead is dead regardless of how you got there. Jan is the one who said it.

[Knipoog]

Thinking about where you can park your Keystone Cop car? What page is "Hoping and Praying" on in the manual of investigative procedures? If it wasn't so believable it would be unbelievable. I'm not certain you would feel comfortable if Jan and his crew were running the show if your daughter was missing. I wouldn't. Something has always stunk about this case and even Rudy thinks Jan is part of it. Unless, of course, you can explain that one away as well.

I can explain but I won't. I hate small village politics.
Do some thinking yourself.

You have to get rid of your biased starting point
and look at several possibilities.

I have no daughters.

But my son had to go to court in Holland and appear in front of a judge.
Just a minor thing. Stupid and kind of racist policeman tried to get him.
I was so mad. I talked about it with someone here and he said calm down you can only hope the judge will be a wise older man. And indeed that was the case and he got off without a fine or whatsoever.
So I don't always trust policemen but I would trust v.d. Straten, bc I think he is a reasonable man with integrity.

[CherokeeKid]

True, but dead is dead regardless of how you got there. Jan is the one who said it.

If someone died accidentally then you can not blame another person of killing and expect he/she gets convicted and put in jail.

[plhtx1]

If someone died accidentally then you can not blame another person of killing and expect he/she gets convicted and put in jail.

And I guess you think O J Simpson was innocent in the murder of his wife and her friend. After all, he was found innocent by a jury of his peers.

[Knipoog]

And I guess you think O J Simpson was innocent in the murder of his wife and her friend. After all, he was found innocent by a jury of his peers.

I wouldn't call the jury "his peers".

The case was an example of how a jury can be manipulated by a team of highly paid well known lawyers.

In other cases innocent people were declared guilty by a jury due to
manipulated evidence or one wrong witness account.

It does happen but luckily not often.

[CherokeeKid]

And I guess you think O J Simpson was innocent in the murder of his wife and her friend. After all, he was found innocent by a jury of his peers.

Nope, I think OJ is guilty. And it's one of a few cases where the US justice system failed miserable. IMO, mainly because OJ was a very much liked celebrity and because he could afford a team of the best lawyers there was.

And, as far as I can remember, his wife's death was not ruled an accident. No question about that.

On the other hand, in the NH case, there is no evidence that even a crime was committed.

No one has been charged.

But, Beth Twitty tried to destroy JK2 with the help of the media. Despicable if you ask me.

[plhtx1]

Last quote does not exists!

As far as I know, no one knows what happened to Natalee. Without a body, not one person knows how she died, not even the ALE.

[CherokeeKid]

As far as I know, no one knows what happened to Natalee. Without a body, not one person knows how she died, not even the ALE.

ALE has the files. You don't.

[resigned]

ALE has the files. You don't.

No evidence of an accidental death ~ & you don't have any files either.

Still think that Joran the killer wasn't capable of being truly evil in 2005?

[resigned]

Last quote does not exists!

Because it went as you had hoped. You would carry a different bias & and/or tune) if the Judge based his ruling on the cop's statements alone. You may want to think why would the cop just pick on someone for no reason? I doubt if most do - the Judge may have determined it really wasn't that big a deal - but not solely without merit.
JMO

[Knipoog]

Because it went as you had hoped. You would carry a different bias & and/or tune) if the Judge based his ruling on the cop's statements alone. You may want to think why would the cop just pick on someone for no reason? I doubt if most do - the Judge may have determined it really wasn't that big a deal - but not solely without merit.
JMO

Well it was without merit but that's a long story. On top of if it would have had merit you normally get a fine and pay it. After some discussion and I have to say he kept his cool although the policemen made some strange remarks(passport issued in Aruba) my son gave up and told him give me a fine and I pay.(you don't want to waste much time). He was told no you have to go to court.

[resigned]

Well it was without merit but that's a long story. On top of if it would have had merit you normally get a fine and pay it. After some discussion and I have to say he kept his cool although the policemen made some strange remarks(passport issued in Aruba) my son gave up and told him give me a fine and I pay.(you don't want to waste much time). He was told no you have to go to court.

I won't dispute your personal account of events - but I do think it is typical for a parent to feel as you did/do:

Stupid and kind of racist policeman tried to get him.
I was so mad

"Stupid and kind of racist" - your feelings were based on what your child told you and how you feel your child would have behaved in such a situation. It made you "mad" that a cop portrayed him otherwise - I think that is how Beth felt when she started hearing the bullshit stories about Natalee. Most parents may not know every single secret about their child, but they know whether someone just up and disappeared on vacation and was portrayed that did so in a way that wasn't even fathomable like Overdosing and disappearing herself...

[CherokeeKid]

No evidence of an accidental death ~ & you don't have any files either.

Still think that Joran the killer wasn't capable of being truly evil in 2005?

I go by what ALE and FBI concluded: Accidental death, an OD of alcohol and drugs.

[Knipoog]

"Stupid and kind of racist" - your feelings were based on what your child told you and how you feel your child would have behaved in such a situation. It made you "mad" that a cop portrayed him otherwise - I think that is how Beth felt when she started hearing the bullshit stories about Natalee. Most parents may not know every single secret about their child, but they know whether someone just up and disappeared on vacation and was portrayed that did so in a way that wasn't even fathomable like Overdosing and disappearing herself...

No, there were witnesses.
And it was not like you think.
But again too much explaining and I don't have the time now.

[resigned]

I go by what ALE and FBI concluded: Accidental death, an OD of alcohol and drugs.

Post those "conclusions", CherokeeKid!

According to the last OM remarks - the Holloway case is still open and Joran is the prime suspect and The FBI doesn't comment on ongoing investigations.

You perpetuate the media myths that you choose to side with while dismissing others as despicable. Dompig was the basis for many of these half ass theories - it may show that he tried to look at all angles but it certainly isn't conclusive of crap.

[resigned]

No, there were witnesses.
And it was not like you think.
But again too much explaining and I don't have the time now.

Since I'm not going to pretend that I know enough about the situation to know what I think - I doubt if you know what I think, but that's okay.

I will add though:
Joran had witnesses too... Deepak, Satish, Steve Croes...boys of a feather and all that. ......just saying.