Abrams April 19th transcript

[sunmoonstars]

ABRAMS: We're back. NBC news has obtained a transcript of what is allegedly a secretly recorded conversation between Aruban suspects Joran van der Sloot and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe. This as rumors are flying that there could be more arrests in connection with the Natalee Holloway case, a judge says prosecutors can hold a possible suspect the rest of this weekend for another week. The 19-year-old identified by his initials, GVC, identified by local papers as Geoffrey von Cromvoirt, is being held in connection with the case and on possible drug charges. But first, NBC's Michelle Kosinski is live in Aruba with the details of this transcript. Now, Michelle, I understand that you were able to get your hands on this exclusively. What's in it?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, it has a lot of things. And we should say it was obtained by a local private investigator, he's been on this island, he's actually an American, but he's been here for a long time. He's recently come back. He spent months working on the Holloway case and when we took this transcript to police, one of the top-level investigators vouched for it.

They said yes, this is a real transcript and this conversation took place. It's a secretly recorded conversation among the three suspects in Natalee Holloway's disappearance. While they were in custody, it was recorded by police, when the boys were left alone together. And basically, there's a big argument among them. They accuse each other of lying to the police, accuse each other of saying certain things they shouldn't have and you see the police strategy.

Obviously, police took statements from each of them and police went back and said he said this about you, he's saying this, why are you saying that? And they really criticize each other and then accuse each other of doing something to Natalee, and it makes you wonder, what do they know and what don't they know. For one part of the transcript, Joran says very calmly to Deepak Kalpoe, you know what happened to that girl. If you don't know, then nothing has happened to her.

Later in the same conversation he says to Deepak I will laugh if they find the girl alive. I know very well that you are afraid. That is if you did something bad with the girl and if they find the girl, then we will see. Satish responds I'm not afraid. Why must I be afraid?

Deepak: I want them to find the girl. You're going to talk (EXPLETIVE) about me that I buried the girl by fisherman's hut.

And Joran says who said about burying? I said nothing about burying. That's what you testified, according to Deepak. Stop with that (EXPLETIVE).

Joran says I said nothing about burying. The only thing that I can think of is that you know people, that is the people from automotive enterprises.

Satish gets in, responds yes, yes, yes, yes, after I got that flat tire (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Yes, yes, yes, I picked you up and after that I went to the beach again for her.

Joran says who said that?

Satish: You said that.

So Joran says I never said that friend. I never said that you've been back friend. That is your problem. If they all find that girl then they will see that (EXPLETIVE).

And they go on. They are screaming at each other at one point, asking why they lied. You know Joran is accusing the Kalpoes of doing something wrong with Natalee and the Kalpoes are saying the same thing to him. They said to each other well, if you didn't do something wrong, then you wouldn't have lied. And it goes on and it's a very heated exchange among these three.

ABRAMS: Michelle, does the person who gave this to you, the private investigator who you mentioned, does that person believe that this interchange that we see in this transcript, do they believe that helps or hurts Joran and Deepak and Satish?

KOSINSKI: They can see it both ways. There are certain areas where they talk about phone calls that were made. Joran gets angry at one of the Kalpoe brothers. He says that he called him on his home phone and he should have known that it was wiretapped and he said things like I hit the jackpot. I hit the (EXPLETIVE) jackpot.

You know, he's angry that the Kalpoe brothers would say things like that. So, there are times in this transcript, you're reading the conversation where it seems like you know you could draw the conclusion maybe they know something and then other times it seems like they're accusing each other of doing something, as if maybe they don't know what happened. So you know there might be just a point in time at which their knowledge of what happened is cut off, but you know it's just the question is still there.

It really doesn't necessarily lend anything to our knowledge of what happened to Natalee. One more frustrating thing to come up, it sheds light on their relationship and things that were said, even you know the lies that were told to police, but still, we don't know where Natalee is.

ABRAMS: All right. Michelle Kosinski, stick around. Let me bring in Rosemarie Arnold, who is one of Joran van der Sloot's attorneys and victim's rights attorney. Thanks for coming in. Appreciate it.

ROSEMARIE ARNOLD, ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: You're welcome, Dan Abrams.

ABRAMS: Nice to see you. So, all right, I'm assuming that based on the fact that you are Joran van der Sloot's attorney that you think that this is helpful to him?

ARNOLD: I think that the tape makes it perfectly clear what exactly happened and that is that the police separated them. They interrogated them for hours at a time without feeding them, without letting them sleep, and the police told each of them separately that the other one ratted them out and did something, so then the police put them all together and it's no wonder they're screaming at each other that you lied, because they're really under the belief that the other kid, the Kalpoe brothers versus Joran and vice versa, lied about them to the police.

Because that's what the police told them. And I think if you look at the transcript, it's perfectly clear that no one knows what happened to Natalee, at that time. And also, you have to look, you're saying this transcript is authentic. But this transcript was obtained by an investigator who works for a man named Jossy who owns a newspaper in Aruba...

ABRAMS: “Diario”.

ARNOLD: ... and this man has a serious political issue with the van der Sloots, because as I understand it, Paul van der Sloot...

ABRAMS: But I don't get it. On the one hand you're saying that this helps your client and then on the other hand you're bashing the guy who provided it.

ARNOLD: Oh, no, no, no, no. I think it clearly helps my client, but when he brings out this tape, he doesn't say and tell everybody nor did the police, well when we obtained this tape, it was after we told each of the kids that the other one ratted them out, that the other one said oh you did this, you did this, and you can hear them on the tape saying you lied about me.

Why did you tell the police that? That's not true. Because the cops were telling them that Deepak said this about you and Joran said this about you, and the cops are saying that you know what happened to Natalee and none of them know what happened to Natalee. That's pretty clear from reading it.

ABRAMS: All right.

ARNOLD: I don't think that was Jossy's intention when he released it though.

ABRAMS: All right. Stick around if you can, because coming up, we're going to get reaction from Natalee's mother, Beth Holloway Twitty joins us after the break.

And later I'm going to respond to your e-mails. Some of you saying that because I am a Duke alum, my coverage of the story has not been fair. If I'm not fair it's not because I'm a Duke alum. It's because I'm not fair...

Your e-mails abramsreport@msnbc.com. Please include your name and where you're writing from. I respond at the end of the show.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS: Coming up, Natalee Holloway's mother, Beth, reacts to reports that there could be more arrests in connection with her daughter's disappearance. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS: We're back. We're talking about the latest news in Aruba. A judge saying prosecutors can hold a possible suspect in the case for another week and there are rumors that more arrests could be imminent.

Joining me now once again is Natalee Holloway's mother, Beth Twitty.

Beth, thanks for coming back on the program. Appreciate it.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: Thank you, Dan.

ABRAMS: Beth, do you get the feeling as we do that there is suddenly 11 months after the fact this momentum?

TWITTY: Well, absolutely there is. And I mean, you know, we're real encouraged by it and you know we just need a break, Dan, and if this new suspect has some information about what happened that night to Natalee, you know, I'm just, gosh, I mean we've just all been waiting so anxiously for any type of break in the case. I mean we would welcome it. Absolutely.

ABRAMS: Have the authorities been in contact with you? I mean do they tell you what's going on?

TWITTY: Well they are keeping in touch with John, the attorney, so I mean that's the line of communication now and then he notifies me once they've updated him.

ABRAMS: Do you know anything about why this latest young man was arrested, Geoffrey von Cromvoirt? I mean, because Joe Tacopina was on this program, the attorney for Joran, saying that he believed he was arrested in connection with a t-shirt with alleged forensics on it. Do you know anything about that?

TWITTY: Well, I am aware of the shirt with the DNA on it, but what I'm hearing is that the shirt has no connection. And that, you know, this new suspect was a person that possibly they could have, you know, interviewed this summer or thought about questioning this summer for whatever reason maybe they decided not to and you know from what I'm understanding is one of the officials began reviewing some documents, thought he might have some pertinent information and then questioned him you know, this weekend and that's what led to the arrest. I think that once they were questioning him, they saw a few discrepancies in what his answers were and arrested him.

ABRAMS: Beth, any truth to this, I don't know if it's rumor or report, et cetera, that Natalee had said something to you about having a crush on a blonde haired, blue eyed boy in Aruba?

TWITTY: Dan, there's just—there's no truth to that at all. You know Natalee had not called me. She didn't have international calling on her phone and no she never—her friends said that this never happened, it was never mentioned. And just simply it's just another rumor that had started and it's just not true, Dan.

ABRAMS: I've asked you this question before in the past. But you know, with these new developments, I want to ask you again. Is it possible that with this arrest, and with other arrests, that you could become convinced that Joran van der Sloot and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe were not involved in Natalee's disappearance?

TWITTY: Well, you know, Dan, I've always stuck with something and we know for a fact, we know that Deepak and Satish and Joran took Natalee, we know the sexual assaults they committed against her by both of the suspects' admissions by Joran van der Sloot and Deepak Kalpoe, what we don't know is what they did with Natalee when they were finished with her. We don't know if they—we don't know that...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS: But he's ambiguous. I mean at the very least, I mean you regularly sort of say that as a matter of fact, that they have admitted to it, but there is some ambiguity at the very least about whether they admitted to that.

TWITTY: Well, in Joran's statement and also now Joran van der Sloot admitted this in person to at least eight witnesses on the very night we arrived on the island. So that is a fact from Joran van der Sloot.

ABRAMS: That what?

TWITTY: That he admitted the sexual assaults that he committed against Natalee while she is coming in and out of consciousness. Now that is something that he did by his own admission to eight witnesses the night we landed on the island.

ABRAMS: Finally, do you know anything about these rumors of a possible imminent arrest?

TWITTY: Well, I've heard something just as you had. I'd heard that there may be additional arrests upcoming and you know I just can't imagine who it might be. I don't know if there will be re-arrests, possibly some other, you know, suspects that were arrested early on. Perhaps maybe Steven Croes. I don't know.

ABRAMS: All right. Beth, as always, thanks a lot for coming on the program. Appreciate it.

TWITTY: Thank you, Dan.

ABRAMS: We'll take a break. When we come back, we'll talk with our legal team, including the woman sitting here who represents Joran van der Sloot and my guess is she's not necessarily going to agree with some of what you just heard.


ABRAMS: We're back with more on the Natalee Holloway case out of Aruba. Michelle Kosinski, they are continuing with a new search out there?

KOSINSKI: Yes, we just heard about that late this afternoon, but it turns out it's been going on for four days now. Prosecutors put out a press release, in fact, letting us know, but before this time, we didn't even know it was going on. That's how good they are at keeping things low key when they need to.

It's a search on the water, in fact, involving the Coast Guard and the Dutch Antilles and Aruba and they say they're using sonar equipment. We don't even know what part of the island this is. We tried to find them and you know use our contacts to get in touch with them, but they have been wanting to keep this low key for four days and they plan on continuing it.

ABRAMS: Let me bring in Clint Van Zandt, former FBI profiler, and Aruban attorney who once represented Natalee's family in Aruba, Vinda de Sousa. Vinda, let me ask you, do you know exactly upon exactly what Beth bases her statement that Joran admitted to sexual assaulting Natalee?

VINDA DE SOUSA, ARUBAN ATTORNEY (via phone): Well, I don't think that you could say that he admitted sexually assaulting Natalee. He admitted to having—that it was consensual...

ABRAMS: She says he admitted...

DE SOUSA: ... and you know...

ABRAMS: She says he admitted repeatedly to sexually assaulting.

DE SOUSA: That's not what I understand.

ABRAMS: Yes. And Rosemarie Arnold, I mean you represent Joran van der Sloot. Is that...

ARNOLD: Dan Abrams, Joran never admitted sexually assaulting her. He said he fooled around with her. It was consensual and there was never, ever an admission. And unfortunately and I feel terrible for Ms. Twitty that she can't find her daughter, but she just can't see past the fact that Joran van der Sloot 11 months after this happened to her daughter has had no involvement, there's not a scintilla of evidence that he did. Even that tape, the police four months after that tape said they have no idea where Natalee is. There is no evidence that Joran did anything, including sexual assault her and you have to bear in mind there's a civil suit here and she has her eye on that monetary prize, and we can't lose sight of that.

ABRAMS: You think that's why she's saying...

ARNOLD: If you look at the complaint, Dan...

ABRAMS: I've read it. Yes...

ARNOLD: ... and she's asking for money...

ABRAMS: Yes, well that's what a civil suit is...

ARNOLD: ... and more money and money and more money. And at this point in time, where we have a suspect, another suspect that we expect to be arrested...

ABRAMS: Isn't it possible she just thinks that he's really responsible and this is her only way of getting any justice?

ARNOLD: I think if she thinks that...

ABRAMS: Yes.

ARNOLD: ... then she just has tunnel vision. She doesn't want to see past Joran van der Sloot. She thinks it because she won't look to the other evidence.

ABRAMS: You know Clint, when you read this secretly recorded transcript, I think it is a fair reading to say that it seems like...

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Yes.

ABRAMS: ... they're each being told, hey, you ratted on me and then the other guy is told, you ratted on me and then they get in a fight about it.

VAN ZANDT: Yes. Well I think that's exactly what happened. I mean, you know were I involved in these interviews, I'd sit each of these guys down and talk to them, and get their story, put them all together, but you know were it not for the tragedy of Natalee being missing, these three guys sound like Abbott and Costello and Costello talking about who's on first. I mean you've got this circular logic going around, but you know I have to agree with the defense attorney sitting there with you.

There is no smoking gun in this, either way. But there is no smoking gun. What everybody, especially Natalee's mom would hope—would one of these guys would say (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you did it with a hatchet in the bedroom or something like that. That's not there, Dan. We just don't have it yet.

ABRAMS: Susan, is this investigation, and I've asked it before, I'm going to ask it again, is this investigation moving away from the three suspects who have been arrested more than once in the context of this case?

FILAN: Well it certainly sounds like they're taking a fresh look at it. It sounds like they've got a new police chief who has gone back from the beginning of the case, looked at everything, and found leads perhaps that hadn't been followed up. Now in following up those leads, he may be coming up with other theories, but it's still unclear whether these new arrests and these new theories are going to lead them back to Joran and the Kalpoe brothers or lead them away from Joran and the Kalpoe brothers and I think that's the cliffhanger right now.

ABRAMS: I mean Rosemarie, you and your co-counsel Joe have consistently said well Joran and this guy Geoffrey didn't know each other, et cetera, but you know it is still possible, even if they weren't buddies that he might have information that's relevant to Joran, right?

ARNOLD: That's possible, Dan Abrams, but the point is that they're holding him as somebody who they suspect is the murderer. They're holding him under an Aruban...

FILAN: How do we know that?

ARNOLD: ... statute for murder.

ABRAMS: Yes. How do we...

VAN ZANDT: No, we don't know that.

ARNOLD: Yes, we do know that. Yes, we do know that.

ABRAMS: Vinda...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS: Well, let me ask Vinda de Sousa. Vinda, you're an Aruban attorney? Do we know that?

DE SOUSA: No, I don't know that. They're not saying too much about the suspicions...

VAN ZANDT: Yes.

DE SOUSA: ... on which they're holding him, but I wouldn't be surprised if they consider all of them to be involved in some sort in what happened to Natalee.

ABRAMS: When you say all of them, you mean the guy who has been arrested and Joran and Satish and Deepak?

DE SOUSA: I wouldn't be surprised.

ABRAMS: Is that based on inside information or are you just guessing?

DE SOUSA: It's based on what I hear.

ABRAMS: All right.

ARNOLD: Our sources tell us that they are being held as suspected of murder and manslaughter.

(CROSSTALK)

DE SOUSA: Those the same charges that—the same accusations that Joran and Deepak and Satish were held...

ARNOLD: That's exactly right.

DE SOUSA: That's why I'm saying...

ARNOLD: That's exactly right.

(CROSSTALK)

DE SOUSA: That's what I just said.

ABRAMS: That's her point. She's saying that they're all, you know that they're thinking maybe they're all in cahoots.

ARNOLD: Well that's not what I'm getting and that's not what I believe.

ABRAMS: I know that...

ARNOLD: But that's why they're being held...

(CROSSTALK)

ARNOLD: ... not because they know something about Joran or about...

VAN ZANDT: Hey, Dan...

ABRAMS: I got to wrap...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS: Clint, I'm sorry...

DE SOUSA: The investigation is ongoing. It's continuing. It's not going away and they're trying to find out what happened...

ABRAMS: Vinda, once again thanks for coming back on the program. Clint Van Zandt and Susan Filan, Michelle Kosinski and Rosemarie Arnold, who keeps referring to me as Dan Abrams, by my full name, thank you for coming on. Appreciate it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12405242/

[katya]

Thank you SMS. Very interesting interview.

[sunmoonstars]

Thank you SMS. Very interesting interview.

Katya, you are most welcome and that was one of the best interviews I have seen in a long time.