General Discussion

[CherokeeKid]

Hi YIF, it's quite an interesting case and I'm still trying to catch up with a lot of info. After Amanda testified there were were some news, I got curious about the case all over again.

I agree, Hannie. "True Justice..." and Perugia Murder File forums are an excellent source for lots of info.

I'll try to do more reading there but today, I'm very tired, had to get up early as one of our dogs had surgery. Thank God, noting severe, just some x-rays taken, a small tumor removed from her front leg and a broken canine tooth pulled. The x-rays showed our little German Shepherd girl has extreme arthritis. But our vet is checking into a new method to treat her: with stem cells.

[yankee-in-france]

Hi YIF, it's quite an interesting case and I'm still trying to catch up with a lot of info. After Amanda testified there were were some news, I got curious about the case all over again.

I agree, Hannie. "True Justice..." and Perugia Murder File forums are an excellent source for lots of info.

I'll try to do more reading there but today, I'm very tired, had to get up early as one of our dogs had surgery. Thank God, noting severe, just some x-rays taken, a small tumor removed from her front leg and a broken canine tooth pulled. The x-rays showed our little German Shepherd girl has extreme arthritis. But our vet is checking into a new method to treat her: with stem cells.

Take care, wishing you and the doggies well.

[CherokeeKid]

Take care, wishing you and the doggies well.

Thanks, YIF. It's very much appreciated.
Had to take her bandage off as he foot was swollen, they had wrapped it too tight. Now I have to watch her like a hawk that she does not pull the stitches out.

[pax]

CK, you and your doggies take care. With this break in the trial I wonder how it's looking for defense and prosecution. Like a lot of cases it's tough to know. Wonder whether the jury and judges might consider different verdicts for Amanda and Rafaelle. Guede might be waiting for this case to end before giving more detail. Hope the Kercher family is doing well. It's been a long haul for them.

[Emily]

CK, you and your doggies take care. With this break in the trial I wonder how it's looking for defense and prosecution. Like a lot of cases it's tough to know. Wonder whether the jury and judges might consider different verdicts for Amanda and Rafaelle. Guede might be waiting for this case to end before giving more detail. Hope the Kercher family is doing well. It's been a long haul for them.

The case is still ongoing. It's just that it's defense evidence and not stories about Foxy Knoxy and her bizarre behavior or sex life..boring for the tabloids. I think it's looking good for the defense, not looking so good for Rudy though.

October, 2007
Perugia 27th June
Today's sitting of the Court of the Assize of Perugia for the hearing of the case against the accused Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the muder of Meredith Kercher opened with the testimony of the director of the Milan nursery school where RG was discovered on 27/10/07. The woman testified in court that she went to the kindergarten about 9.15 AM where she had an appointment with an ironworker who was to do some work in the garden.

"When I went in I saw a young man coming out of my office, who turned out to be RG," (the young Ivorian condemned to 30 years in prison for the murder of MK, editor's note) the director explained. "He seemed very quiet and calm. He told me that he was from Perugia, having arrived in Milan by train the previous evening, and that a lad at the station had told him that he could sleep there for 50 Euros." The woman remembered finding a cupboard and the cash drawer open. From the latter, in particular, a little small change was missing. The director finally explained that she called the police, who once they arrived had Guede open his backpack.

"I remember that inside there was one of our kitchen knives, usually used by the cook for cutting up meat," she said. " He also had with him a bunch of keys, a woman's watch and a small hammer." The woman remembered that Guede also had with him a computer, later revealed to be the proceeds of a theft, removed between October 13th & 14th from a lawyer's office in Perugia. Following this episode Guede was charged with theft, receiving stolen goods, keeping and illegal carrying of weapons.

From the ABC article kindly posted by Gwen:

The defense teams for Knox and Sollecito maintain, instead, that one person alone is responsible for the murder -- a thief who broke into the cottage Knox and Kercher shared.

Maori, Sollecito's lawyer, told reporters in Perugia that today "it was shown clearly and unequivocally that Guede had committed a theft that was a photocopy of the one that took place in Meredith's house."

In fact, the story Brocchi and his colleague Alberto Palazzoli told in court today not only bore a close resemblance to what was found in Kercher's house, but it also painted an even more bizarre picture of Guede than has already emerged.

Break-In Linked to Murder?
Palazzoli discovered they had been broken into Sunday, Oct. 14, 2007, and police later determined that the thief or thieves had entered by climbing up to the window, which is above a terrace, about 12 feet high. Police determined a rock was used with some strength to break through the double glass, and the alarm system was disabled. A computer and a printer were missing.

There was a similar broken window at the scene of Kercher's murder, in the house on via della Pergola in Perugia that Knox and Kercher shared with two Italian girls, When Knox returned to the house on Nov. 2, 2007, the morning after the murder, she noticed that the window in her housemate Filomena Romanelli's room was broken, and there was glass on the floor. Nothing of value was missing from any of the rooms, however. Police later found a large rock in the room.

Investigators and the prosecutors in the Kercher case have said the window in Romanelli's room was broken from the inside and accused Knox and Sollecito of simulating a crime. Prosecution witnesses have testified that the window was too high to reach, and that broken glass shards show that the window was broken from within.

The defense contends that the same can be said of the break-in at the law offices. Brocchi explained in court that about two weeks after the theft, Oct. 27, he received a call from the police saying that they had found the stolen computer and a cell phone belonging to him (which he had not realized had gone missing). The objects were found on a person who was picked up by police in Milan, but they did not specify who that person was.

But two days later, a young black man showed up on the steps to Brocchi's office in gym shorts and a tank top (though it was cold) holding a basketball.

Brocchi said the man spoke perfect Italian with a Perugia accent and told him that he had been caught with some things that Brocchi had reported as stolen, and just wanted to tell Brocchi that he had bought those things and paid for them at the Milan train station.

"I told him, 'look, I have no idea who you are'," said Brocchi in court. "And he answered, 'I don't know who you are, either.'" Brocchi then told the young man he just wanted his things back, and shut the door.

Days later, Brocchi said he recognized Guede as the man who had visited him when Guede's picture appeared in newspapers reporting his arrest.


In what was a relatively short hearing at the trial, the judge and jurors also heard testimony today from Sollecito's former cleaning lady.

Marina Ciriboga, from Ecuador, answered questions regarding the use of bleach as a detergent at Sollecito's house.

Prosecutors believe Knox and Sollecito used bleach to clean up blood and other evidence on the crime scene after the murder. A number of prosecution witnesses have been questioned regarding purchases of bleach and bottles of bleach found in Sollecito's house.

Ciriboga today said that she usually washed the floors with another detergent, but that she had asked Sollecito to buy bleach. When she stopped working for Sollecito in September one and a half bottles of bleach were still in the house, Ciriboga said.

Ciriboga also works at the small supermarket down the street from Sollecito's house where a witness -- the owner of the store -- has testified he saw Knox early on the morning after the murder, when Knox says she was asleep.

Ciriboga told the court she had never seen Knox or Sollecito at the supermarket.

[DiamondDot]

I still have not heard a good defence explanation of the staging of the crime (lighting and afterward). Absolutely no reason a random criminal would do that. No reason for RG to do that, either. Especially not after leaving his DNA all over the place and a toilet full of crap.

[pax]

Thanks for the info Emily. Looking forward to hearing more of the defense.

[pax]

I'm not sure about the staging either DiamondDot. I'd guess the defense will get to that.

[Emily]

I still have not heard a good defence explanation of the staging of the crime (lighting and afterward). Absolutely no reason a random criminal would do that. No reason for RG to do that, either. Especially not after leaving his DNA all over the place and a toilet full of crap.

The argument is that it wasn't staging. They are saying that Rudy threw a rock through the window and climbed in, just like he supposedly did in the lawyers offices. They are saying that Rudy was in the process of stealing when perhaps Meredith came home.

The unflushed toilet was either because he was in there when Meredith returned and was trying to be quiet or imo he might have been leaving a calling card. Thieves do that kind of thing, sometimes they leave it in the middle of the floor or a bed. Generally if someone breaks in and steals a few things the police don't come round fingerprinting and checking for dna. All you get usually is a report number for your insurance. The toilet with the crap was at the other end of the house, he probably forgot about it. He probably did a general clean up, perhaps careful to check he hadn't dropped anything that could be used to identify him but contrary to claims his fingerprints weren't on record. He was caught because his palm print was on record with immigration. He did have connections to that address..or at least with the guys downstairs so he might have feared that his name may have come up eventually.

The defense has already attacked some of the claims of staging and no doubt we will hear more about this.

I don't think anyone is saying that Rudy went there to kill, it may have been an accident, just an escalation of a confrontation.

[Emily]

Another witness was called for the defense but I don't think many understood the point of it. I read Frank's blog on Perugia Shock for his account and for anyone who followed the NH case it might be more understandable.

The morning after the murder an agitated man was seen wandering around saying "dirty bitch" and then was heard yelling into a phone "dirty bitch I'll kill you", there was apparently some blood on him and he was taken to hospital, the witnesses were interviewed by a reporter from a local paper but it was no big deal and not published.

But 7mths later 2 reporters (from the same local Perugia paper) went back and tried to get the witnesses to change their story. They wouldn't but the changed story was printed anyway. The man was now wearing a coat just like that described by Rudy as belonging to the guy who stabbed Meredith and also he was yelling "I killed her". This was not only printed in the local paper but picked up by a bigger newspaper.

This same reporter and newspaper have been responsible for a few witnesses in this case, all coming a long time after that night, like a year later. One was the shop owner who claimed Amanda was in his store the next morning buying bleach, another was the homeless man on the bench who is the only witness that puts Amanda and Raffaele out that night. The story of Amanda in the store has just been denied in court by the woman who was also there, she didn't see her.

The point of the defense was to show how this reporter and newspaper operates. I think it's like having a NH trial where the gardener or pond witness gets called and the defense bring in frozen condom guy to show the quality of Jossy's witnesses and the tactics the paper uses.

eta: To clarify, the witness used by the defense was the one who witnessed this guy and who was asked by the reporter to change the story and they confirmed that the story was incorrectly reported and not what they said.

[yankee-in-france]

-- and I look forward to the defense resolving Amanda and Raf buying bleach and cleaning at a very early hour. I think that needs to be explained, otherwise it sure supports their involvement in this heinous crime.

[Emily]

-- and I look forward to the defense resolving Amanda and Raf buying bleach and cleaning at a very early hour. I think that needs to be explained, otherwise it sure supports their involvement in this heinous crime.

From the ABC article above:

Prosecutors believe Knox and Sollecito used bleach to clean up blood and other evidence on the crime scene after the murder. A number of prosecution witnesses have been questioned regarding purchases of bleach and bottles of bleach found in Sollecito's house.

Ciriboga today said that she usually washed the floors with another detergent, but that she had asked Sollecito to buy bleach. When she stopped working for Sollecito in September one and a half bottles of bleach were still in the house, Ciriboga said.

Ciriboga also works at the small supermarket down the street from Sollecito's house where a witness -- the owner of the store -- has testified he saw Knox early on the morning after the murder, when Knox says she was asleep.

Ciriboga told the court she had never seen Knox or Sollecito at the supermarket.
-------------------------


There was one and a half bottles of bleach found after the murder so in other words the bleach at Raffaele's was bought before the murder and there was still the same amount left afterwards according to the cleaning lady. That cleaning lady also worked at the store and was there the morning after the murder. She was asked by a judge if she saw Amanda that morning and she said no. No receipts for bleach were ever found or produced by the prosecution.

There is another cleaning lady, apparently the one mentioned above was pregnant and stopped cleaning. This other one testified about the leak.

From a poster on PMF who has attended some of the court sessions:

It may help to recall the testimony in court which discussed specifically the leak in the house. I understood from testimony of the cleaning lady and the police that there was indeed a leak under the sink. The reason the mop was used was not just because one-time spill but because every time the water was run, there was a leak. It was not just one spill or gush, but a chronic problem. In court, the cleaning lady stated that when she went to the apartment days later (on the 5th), and the police afterwards as well, and there was indeed a leak. Also, underneath the sink there was a bucket to catch the dripping water each time the faucet was turned on. They said the bucket was full of water, and the water was clear. There was no blood or trace of blood found on the mop, the stracci or the bucket. We are starting to split hairs a bit whether she said it was from a leak or washing dishes. I mean the pipe leaked because the water was run to wash the dishes.

[yankee-in-france]

Thanks, Emily -- let's say that the above is true, weren't Amanda and Raffael seen outside the cottage with a mop when the police arrived. Even if we set aside the bleach testimony, Amanda was not known for her squeaky cleanness. Why the need to clean the cottage that morning?

[Emily]

Thanks, Emily -- let's say that the above is true, weren't Amanda and Raffaele seen outside the cottage with a mop when the police arrived. Even if we set aside the bleach testimony, Amanda was not known for her squeaky cleanness. Why the need to clean the cottage that morning?

What cleaning of the cottage was that? They returned the mop after cleaning up the leak at Raffaele's. They were sitting outside waiting with the mop up against the wall. Why would they do that if they were in the middle of a secret clean up or finished cleaning? I don't understand the reasoning. Why would they go to all the trouble of faking a leak at Raffaele's. Why not clean up then just leave the mop where it belonged?

What evidence was presented in court of a clean up? No mop was presented as evidence.

They said that one fingerprint for Amanda was suspicious but that was rejected by the fingerprint expert. No one has been able to explain how they cleaned up all their evidence without touching the rest. The house wasn't that clean anyway. There were bloody traces of Meredith tracked on Rudy's feet through the house, blood stains in the bathroom and even a footprint in blood. For those that think it's Raffaele's or Amanda's how does that fit into the clean up theory.

If the prosecution had presented photo evidence of a clean up the pictures would be everywhere.

It's amazes me how people say that finding all that evidence of Rudy but not from them is proof they are guilty. Then say Amanda's dna in the bathroom proves she's guilty. Of course if none had been found people would say that's just because she cleaned it up. They can't win.

[yankee-in-france]

No, maybe they can't, perhaps they shouldn't have lied in the beginning, perhaps Amanda shouldn't have said that she was present and Mr. Lumumba was the murderer. They might have won with the truth.

I think that it is possible for two store attendants to be on duty but not to see every single customer that comes and goes. They don't spend every moment by the front door. Why would the worker who claimed to see them lie? These are serious charges. The owner may have been in the loo or in the back making coffee or in another part of the store.

[Emily]

No, maybe they can't, perhaps they shouldn't have lied in the beginning, perhaps Amanda shouldn't have said that she was present and Mr. Lumumba was the murderer. They might have won with the truth.

I think that it is possible for two store attendants to be on duty but not to see every single customer that comes and goes. They don't spend every moment by the front door. Why would the worker who claimed to see them lie? These are serious charges. The owner may have been in the loo or in the back making coffee or in another part of the store.

This is from an early newsweek article:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/70610/page/1

"Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct," Perugia police chief Arturo de Felice told reporters. "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in. They all participated but had different roles."

I think that explains everything. She buckled and told them what they knew was correct. The police were wrong, Patrick had nothing to do with it. The police were the ones who insisted that Patrick was involved and she gave them what they wanted under pressure. Just a false confession.

I think one of the amazing things about this case is how the police were so sure about what happened that night, they had this little theory all worked out...but then they had to try and make the evidence fit their scenerio. It didn't so then they had to use innuendo and smears to make the case for them.

Normally police let the evidence tell the story and fit their theory around it. I think the police and prosecutor really screwed this case up. I'd like to think this will soon be over and hard questions asked but I doubt it. They could drag this case out for years with appeals.

[yankee-in-france]

This is from an early newsweek article:

"Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct," Perugia police chief Arturo de Felice told reporters. "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in. They all participated but had different roles."

I think that explains everything. She buckled and told them what they knew was correct. The police were wrong, Patrick had nothing to do with it. The police were the ones who insisted that Patrick was involved and she gave them what they wanted under pressure. Just a false confession.

I think one of the amazing things about this case is how the police were so sure about what happened that night, they had this little theory all worked out...but then they had to try and make the evidence fit their scenerio. It didn't so then they had to use innuendo and smears to make the case for them.

Normally police let the evidence tell the story and fit their theory around it. I think the police and prosecutor really screwed this case up. I'd like to think this will soon be over and hard questions asked but I doubt it. They could drag this case out for years with appeals.

I don't know that the police did not let the evidence tell the story. I think it did and that's how they knew that the two weren't being truthful. As for Newsweek's word buckled and the admission of facts we knew were correct, perhaps it was in the translation process that buckled came out of Italian for recanting or changing stories and the new statements more closely fit with the known facts.

[Emily]

I don't know that the police did not let the evidence tell the story. I think it did and that's how they knew that the two weren't being truthful. As for Newsweek's word buckled and the admission of facts we knew were correct, perhaps it was in the translation process that buckled came out of Italian for recanting or changing stories and the new statements more closely fit with the known facts.

I'm not sure if he said these things in Italian or at least I don't think he was talking to the Italian press. In the Italian reports you only get the few lines from the official press conference about a sexual motive and Meredith being an innocent but the next day the English media has a few extras.

I think this explains why:

Bassiouni, who has directed a criminal law center in Rome for 34 years, said leaks of police information are uncommon in Italy and actually banned by law.
"Sometimes, though, when it involves foreigners, the police or prosecutors leak information to show that they're doing their jobs," Bassiouni said.

From different sources:

On Monday night, three days after the murder, she finally cracked under questioning, said Arturo De Felice, the head of the police.

Mr De Felice said: "She crumbled. She confessed. There were holes in her alibi. Her mobile phone records were crucial."

He said Knox's claims that she was elsewhere had been demonstrated to be false. The police found text messages on her phone from Lumumba, fixing a meeting between them at 8.35pm on the night Miss Kercher died.

When presented with this evidence, he added, Amanda Knox had "crumbled".

According to the BBC report, De Felice said Knox "crumbled" under interrogation and claimed she was in the kitchen in the apartment she shared with Kercher when Lumumba went into Kercher's bedroom alone. She then said she heard Kercher scream but then covered her ears to block out the noise.

And this:

None of the suspects has been allowed to see a lawyer. Because all three have different accounts of the evening, police have blocked their legal representatives to avoid any chance of collusion. Instead, all of them are in solitary confinement.

"The girl is particularly confused," said Giacobbe Pantaleone, the director of the penitentiary, according to the article. "But in this situation that's a logical and normal fact."

[yankee-in-france]

.. again, the problem may be that the original language was Italian and the translations made are from people whose business is making news. Crumbled, cracked is more dramatic than finally said or finally gave a more believable statement ... but JMO.

[Emily]

.. again, the problem may be that the original language was Italian and the translations made are from people whose business is making news. Crumbled, cracked is more dramatic than finally said or finally gave a more believable statement ... but JMO.

It's very commendable to be skeptical of the press. It's just a pity that there's been so little of that in this forum.

[yankee-in-france]

Emily, unless some among us speak/read Italian, it is a bit difficult. I thought that the press was reporting in Italian and that was one of the problems ... maybe I am wrong.

[pax]

Hi Emily. Though I might appear credulous I'm skeptical of every source of reporting. I think many posters are like that. My views are still up in the air. You raise important points questioning prosecution theories on so-called staging, break-ins, dna, footprints, whether the crime was committed by only one person, etc. If Knox and Sollecito are acquitted I'll definitely understand why. Looking forward to reading more of your excellent posts.

[yankee-in-france]

Are they on summer break now?

[Hannie]

No, not yet, Yif.
They only have court on Friday's and Saturday's, so today there will be testimony again.

As far as I know the reason for only 2 days of court is that compared to the US where prosecutors are only doing one case at a time, in Italy they are handling more cases at once, so therefore the 2 days on this case..

[yankee-in-france]

Thanks, Hannie.