All or nothing...

[yankee-in-france]

He hasn't spent a minute in jail for Natalee's disappearance. Questioning, arresting and detaining witnesses/suspects is part of the Dutch legal system. Being the last known person to be seen with Natalee certainly merited him being questioned. The time he spent in jail was due to his own "litany of lies."

Thanks, Pat, for reminding me. I think that you are right on that had Joran not lied or changed little bits three times or whatever that he would never have been in jail for three months. It was IMO his own doing, but then he may have been setting up the whole thing for his consummate liar status to preclude further detention.

[iquitos]

possible leads/scenarios instead of sitting around waiting for joran to tell them what happened they would have solved the case.

[cajun_mali]

He was in jail because he wouldn't confess to anything.

Thanks, Pat, for reminding me. I think that you are right on that had Joran not lied or changed little bits three times or whatever that he would never have been in jail for three months. It was IMO his own doing, but then he may have been setting up the whole thing for his consummate liar status to preclude further detention.

[cajun_mali]

That's not what I said. That is your interpretation of what I posted. You seem to be more keen on me naming someone specific then actually reading what I posted. ...and no - I'm not naming anyone specific so move on.

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what you said.

[cajun_mali]

He hasn't spent a minute in jail for Natalee's disappearance. Questioning, arresting and detaining witnesses/suspects is part of the Dutch legal system. Being the last known person to be seen with Natalee certainly merited him being questioned. The time he spent in jail was due to his own "litany of lies."

He was in jail due to Natalees' disappearance in hopes he would confess or evidence was found. If it was his lies, then he would have been released when 2k were, because their stories matched. The only difference between J's second and third stories seems to be being picked up by one of the k's or not. ALE wanted a resulution, and it could only come through J.

[resigned]

He was in jail due to Natalees' disappearance in hopes he would confess or evidence was found. If it was his lies, then he would have been released when 2k were, because their stories matched. The only difference between J's second and third stories seems to be being picked up by one of the k's or not. ALE wanted a resulution, and it could only come through J.

He was in jail due to his lies about Natalee's disappearance.

[FloridaDoug]

1) -- or maybe they just don't want to prosecute Joran for anything.

2) Here's a legal hypothetical question for anyone knowledgeable with Aruban law: let's say that they successfully prosecute Joran for body disposal and then down the road a few years, they discovered evidence of bodily harm to Natalee inflicted by Joran. Could they still prosecute him for murder/manslaughter whatever having already prosecuted him for body disposal?

ETA I don't personally believe that Joran physically harmed Natalee, but if ALE was barred from further prosecution because of a conviction on the body disposal charge that might explain why they aren't pursuing the body disposal charge at this time.

1) I think they did not have the evidence. I remember a later statement by Mos that the court did not believe there was sufficient evidence even for a pre-trial detention, much less a conviction.

2) I am not an expert on Dutch/Aruban law, but I doubt a conviction on body disposal would stop a trial for murder.

[FloridaDoug]

Plus he would have already served time for this offense if they would have charged him with it, so basically not worth it...

IIRC the maximum for body disposal is 6 months, and that would mean Joran would have to serve 3 months in jail.

I think it would be worth it if they had the evidence, which in my opinion they did not.

[Hannie]

As far as I know you're right about the 6 months. But I doubt he would have spend the total of that if he had been charged with it. That's why I said the three months he spend already would probably have been it...

But indeed fact is there is no evidence...

[cajun_mali]

He was in jail due to his lies about Natalee's disappearance.

j2k lied as a group, and pretty much agreed on a final statement. Why then was J kept while 2k were released if it was based on lies? There is no evidence 2k dropped J and N off.

J was held for other reasons.

[resigned]

j2k lied as a group, and pretty much agreed on a final statement. Why then was J kept while 2k were released if it was based on lies? There is no evidence 2k dropped J and N off.

J was held for other reasons.

They each made their own separate statements, not as a group.

What other reasons were Joran "held" for?

[cajun_mali]

They each made their own separate statements, not as a group.

What other reasons were Joran "held" for?

They agreed in major details. I'm not sure how separate 2k's statements were.

Political pressure? According to statements J was the last seen with N, maybe, but there is no evidence of truth for the final statements. It looks to me they wanted to hold J until he admitted to guilt of something (my opinion.)

My question would be why were2k released. Dompig said something about pressuring SK, but DK was too strong. With 20 or so J statements, signed and unsigned, ALE cherry-picked a claim J groped an unconscious N.

[cajun_mali]

I would be grateful that my Dad worked in the OM and him and his friends helped me out as much as they did, whether it was intentional or not.

It's like you answered a question I didn't ask. It seems you put yourself in J's place. which I didn't ask KM, and answered in J's place.

I guess I should have asked who you think J should have been grateful to.

Of course I could be totally off and your dad worked in the OM and ....

[prolific]

They agreed in major details. I'm not sure how separate 2k's statements were.

Political pressure? According to statements J was the last seen with N, maybe, but there is no evidence of truth for the final statements. It looks to me they wanted to hold J until he admitted to guilt of something (my opinion.)

My question would be why were2k released. Dompig said something about pressuring SK, but DK was too strong. With 20 or so J statements, signed and unsigned, ALE cherry-picked a claim J groped an unconscious N.

What major details did they all agree on? And what should ALE have done with the prime suspect's claim of groping an unconscious Natalee?

Are the judges that ordered his continued detention in on it too, did they just succumb to political pressure too?

Why keep mixing up Dompig's quotes, Dompig said a lot of things to a lot of people..


DOMPIG: Well, it would take me, I think, a little over two days to go over all the inconsistencies. None of the stories match up, let me put it that way. So when it comes to believing this individual, we know in which category to place him.


THE ABRAMS REPORT - Oct. 12/05
Dompig: So sometimes people will ask us that, "Are you not tunnel-visioned? Maybe you should look at other possibilities." Of course. We did that. But we still feel that, every time you go on a path, a different path, that path leads back, comes back to these three boys.

[resigned]

It's like you answered a question I didn't ask. It seems you put yourself in J's place. which I didn't ask KM, and answered in J's place.

I guess I should have asked who you think J should have been grateful to.

Of course I could be totally off and your dad worked in the OM and ....

I answered the question you asked.......

How would you feel about being jailed 3 months without even being charged with a crime?

Don't blame me if you immediately thought of Joran. I kept telling you to read what I posted. I answered your question generally - Perhaps you are less sure of Joran being involved in Natalee's disappearance than you think you are?

[K_Meine]

Until there is enough proof to convict Joran of SOMETHING, he doesn't deserve a minute in jail for Natalees disappearance.

According to Dompig, there were 3 main stories, the rest was minor differences. Drop off Natalee and all leave; d. o. Nat and J, and D picks up J; d. o. Nat and J and D doesn't p/u J. We know the first is wrong, and we don't know if either of the other 2 are true.

You and I don't know what happened between HMI and ALE.

There's a difference between us. I can get my mind around the idea J may be guilty; you can't get around the idea he may be totally innocent.

I'm afraid you haven't a clue as to how I think and speculating can make you look foolish. I have no issue with being different nor do I think it is impossible for Joran to be innocent. However, what makes little sense is why would Joran say and do so many things to make himself look suspicious and guilty if he were completely innocent?

This purposeful distracting is either for his benefit or for someone he is covering for. Either that or he is a complete idiot for electing to lie to police at the worst possible time. Narcissistic and guilty or stupid and innocent? Either way what he did was wrong.

[K_Meine]

possible leads/scenarios instead of sitting around waiting for joran to tell them what happened they would have solved the case.

It's interesting how many have let Joran off the hook for this or not even mentioned it. I'm sure had Joran not provided such distractions and promise that the ALE would have followed other leads. Then again when the last person who admits to being with someone starts offering inconsistent and suspicious stories. It's fairly common for law enforcement to keep their eyes on them. Like it or not, Joran gave them more reasons to stay then to look elsewhere. AFAIC, if the answers were elsewhere. Joran should have been processed for purposely distracting the investigation.

[cajun_mali]

go ask Dompig

they gave ALE every opportunity to get something out of Joran, until it was practically impossible to do so anymore

Dompig is a major source of what we think we know

got a link to your quotes like I try to give
like

Dompig says Joran's basic story changed three times. "But the little facts changed over 25 times. So it was never the same."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/ ... age4.shtml

They agreed in major details. I'm not sure how separate 2k's statements were.

Political pressure? According to statements J was the last seen with N, maybe, but there is no evidence of truth for the final statements. It looks to me they wanted to hold J until he admitted to guilt of something (my opinion.)

My question would be why were2k released. Dompig said something about pressuring SK, but DK was too strong. With 20 or so J statements, signed and unsigned, ALE cherry-picked a claim J groped an unconscious N.

What major details did they all agree on? And what should ALE have done with the prime suspect's claim of groping an unconscious Natalee?

Are the judges that ordered his continued detention in on it too, did they just succumb to political pressure too?

Why keep mixing up Dompig's quotes, Dompig said a lot of things to a lot of people..


DOMPIG: Well, it would take me, I think, a little over two days to go over all the inconsistencies. None of the stories match up, let me put it that way. So when it comes to believing this individual, we know in which category to place him.


THE ABRAMS REPORT - Oct. 12/05
Dompig: So sometimes people will ask us that, "Are you not tunnel-visioned? Maybe you should look at other possibilities." Of course. We did that. But we still feel that, every time you go on a path, a different path, that path leads back, comes back to these three boys.

[cajun_mali]

I'm afraid you haven't a clue as to how I think and speculating can make you look foolish. I have no issue with being different nor do I think it is impossible for Joran to be innocent. However, what makes little sense is why would Joran say and do so many things to make himself look suspicious and guilty if he were completely innocent?

This purposeful distracting is either for his benefit or for someone he is covering for. Either that or he is a complete idiot for electing to lie to police at the worst possible time. Narcissistic and guilty or stupid and innocent? Either way what he did was wrong.

I'm glad you made it clear.

As far as we know he's only lied to the police twice. First story, and second or third. If he lied on all 3, well, that makes us question 2k's second statements too.

[prolific]

go ask Dompig

they gave ALE every opportunity to get something out of Joran, until it was practically impossible to do so anymore

Dompig is a major source of what we think we know

got a link to your quotes like I try to give
like

Dompig says Joran's basic story changed three times. "But the little facts changed over 25 times. So it was never the same."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/ ... age4.shtml

Go ask Dompig what? You said ALE cherry picked, I asked you what ALE should have done with the prime suspect saying he groped an unconscious Natalee? I also asked about the judges and what were the major details that they all agreed on.

Links....seriously? Why, you've never heard Dompig saying those things? It's all old news, you could probably easily do a search and find it all over this board and I don't think I asked you for the link to that sentence of Dompig's as we've heard that before too, in context..

BTW, jmo but saying his little facts changed over 25 times, so it was never the same isn't saying that they were just 'minor' differences as if they were no biggie...

I'm sorry, i don't know what this means:

"they gave ALE every opportunity to get something out of Joran, until it was practically impossible to do so anymore"

[iquitos]

It's interesting how many have let Joran off the hook for this or not even mentioned it. I'm sure had Joran not provided such distractions and promise that the ALE would have followed other leads. Then again when the last person who admits to being with someone starts offering inconsistent and suspicious stories. It's fairly common for law enforcement to keep their eyes on them. Like it or not, Joran gave them more reasons to stay then to look elsewhere. AFAIC, if the answers were elsewhere. Joran should have been processed for purposely distracting the investigation.

joran is under no legal obligation to spill his guts to anybody. even if he does, they need evidence to go along with a confession. they apparently have none so what joran tells them is next to worthless.

[cajun_mali]

"Believe me, we were looking for anything to throw him, to keep him in jail," says Dompig. "The only thing he admitted to was that he was fondling [her] sexually, like kissing, touching her. And there was no sexual in terms of penetration or whatever, really having sex with her.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/ ... age4.shtml

The Twittys have accused Joran of changing his story more than 20 times. Dompig says that, while Joran has indeed made small changes in some of his more than 20 statements, he has given just three versions of what happened. The first, discarded in early June, ended with Natalee dropped off at the Holiday Inn. The second had Joran leaving her at the beach by the Marriott. In a third, given to police in August, Joran claimed Deepak had actually dropped him off near his home and disappeared with Natalee in his car.

old stuff, no link

Go ask Dompig what? You said ALE cherry picked, I asked you what ALE should have done with the prime suspect saying he groped an unconscious Natalee? I also asked about the judges and what were the major details that they all agreed on.

Links....seriously? Why, you've never heard Dompig saying those things? It's all old news, you could probably easily do a search and find it all over this board and I don't think I asked you for the link to that sentence of Dompig's as we've heard that before too, in context..

BTW, jmo but saying his little facts changed over 25 times, so it was never the same isn't saying that they were just 'minor' differences as if they were no biggie...

I'm sorry, i don't know what this means:

"they gave ALE every opportunity to get something out of Joran, until it was practically impossible to do so anymore"

[iquitos]

what happened to natalee. he is only responsible for her to the extent she accepted his help. if she indeed refused to go back to the hotel what is he supposed to do? how would he even begin to imagine these consequences? i am sure he would feel responsible and even guilty but what is he supposed to do? Isn't that what he asked the speech therapist the first night when she bitched him out? what a venal woman.

[resigned]

what happened to natalee. he is only responsible for her to the extent she accepted his help. if she indeed refused to go back to the hotel what is he supposed to do? how would he even begin to imagine these consequences? i a sure he would feel responsible and even guilty but what is he supposed to do? Isn't that what he asked the speech therapist the first night when she bitched him out? what a venal woman.

Joran nevered seemed to suffer from a lack of imagination. IMO

[iquitos]

imaginative phase happened later?